Culturing your own Phytoplankton

[ediaz]

No doubt that DT's has the science and technology to provide a very high quality product but.......if you spent about 10 minutes a day you too can grow a great phytoplankton like I've been doing for the past couple of years.

AMEN!!

[ezhoops]

Or maybe us Michiganders are just a bunch of phyto loving fools, huh ediaz. I'll be out your way this weekend, Saugatuck

[Kathy55g]

In reply about the smell: Yep. You right!

With all the talk about trace metals and fertilizer being dosed with the home grown phyto, I wonder if people are taking into consideration that the phyto consume these things, and that it doesn't dissappear. Even if you feed washed phyto to your tank, your phyto eating organisms are getting a dose of whatever the phyto consumed, and they consumed f/2 or whatever the phyto was grown on. So the trace contaminants in the water the phyto is grown in, is a small concentration when diluted in the tank water, compared to the amount the phyto eating corals and inverts are getting from the phyto itself. Who knows if this is not a required nutrient for them anyway?

I hang out with pharmacologists, and the expression goes, "Dose is everything."

Cheers,
Kathy

[ediaz]

Send me a PM if you wanna to stop by...

Ed

[TheDeepSandBed]

So it has been almost a week. My cultures look great (an opaque neon green) but not the intense dark green I have seen in other cultures. How long does it ussually take to reach that point? Also how can you tell if your culture crashes?

PS: My rotifer cysts came today, cant wait to set them up!!!

PPS: Can we sticky this thread for future culturists? (search is not my friend on this site )

[ediaz]

It takes a while for the algae to get used to your water. Keep it clean to avoid crashes.

Get a loupe to see the rotifers when they hatch, the first time its hard to spot them.

if the culture crash, most times it will turn like a dirty yellow, it will foam a little and you will see sediment on the bottom of the culture container.

There is a sticky at The Fish Breeding Forum, with articles on live food cultures by Dr. Frank Marini, a must read.

Ed

[Fredfish]

Exceptional thread. It should be stickied.

Anthony. Thank you for taking the time to ask questions on our behalf and reporting back here. I must say it was very generous of Mr. Tagrin to share his knowlege with us.

I was dismayed to learn that phyto looses its DHA/EPA content above certain temps. I have no way to keep my phyto cool. We have been above 30 C for the whole summer.

It will be interesting to see how the temp affects seahorse fry survival rates.

Fred

[ezhoops]

just a note, don't waste your money buying a florida aqua farms or any other brand of plastic mearuring stick. Their pretty much useless. No accuracy whatsoever.

[Luis A M]

Originally posted by ezhoops
just a note, don't waste your money buying a florida aqua farms or any other brand of plastic mearuring stick. Their pretty much useless. No accuracy whatsoever.

No kidding?I find it very useful.Much more accurate than a visual estimate,and much simpler than a cell count.

[Bugger]

I've noticed alot of algea growth in my display when adding home cultured phyto (but) I only added on one time so my system probally coulden't handle it.

[ezhoops]

Wow, well if you ever need a new measuring stick let me know. plus it only tells a range of amounts it doesn't tell you exactly how much algae are really present.

Bugger - yeah you might see some new blooms, cause phyto does have some amounts of phosphate and other things, you should be fine, just take it slow at first.

[shanekennedy]

Originally posted by Bugger
Anthony is right it so diffucult and time consuming anybody that tells you its easy to grow is a liar.

phyto is easy to grow.

i spent several weeks reading numerous articles on the subject. it sounded very difficult, but i thought the same thing about maintaining a saltwater tank as opposed to freshwater. i spend less than 5 mins a week maintaining the culture. i have 3 2-liter bottles that i rotate. after i empty a bottle, i dip it in my trash can full of saltwater & fill it up. i also rotate my bottles about 45 degrees daily when i gather plankton to feed my tank, otherwise 1 wall of the bottle becomes really dark green since light fixutre is beside bottles. i don't reduce the salinity of the water. i don't sterilize, though i would to change that. i don't wait fur culture growth to peak. i'm sure i could grow denser cultures if i spent more time, but what i'm doing works.

the tunicates that came on my tbs rock began receding after going in to my tank. once i started dosing plankton, their growth took off. i haven't noticed changes in other filter feeders. i do not have a phosphate problem.

the cost of the setup was less than 2 bottles of dt's. i have nothing against dt's. i happily used their product prior to growing my own

[Anthony Calfo]

quality... not quantity my friends.

That is the thrust of my point.

I'm lucky enough to occasionally play with the big toys/labs and have access to more folks with bigger toys/labs The differences can be amazing.

If you did/could do a bioassay on what you/we are home-growing, many folks would be surprised and disappointed.

[ezhoops]

If you did/could do a bioassay on what you/we are home-growing, many folks would be surprised and disappointed.

that's kind of like saying that if you compared our reef husbandry techniques to those of the ocean you would be surprised and disappointed.

I'm sure your right Anthony and we agree but.......Since no one can duplicate nature EVEN DT's, we have to live by this next quote.

No doubt that DT's has the science and technology to provide a very high quality product but.......if you spent about 10 minutes a day you too can grow a great phytoplankton like I've been doing for the past couple of years.

I guess its just a matter of what is a priority to you. none-the-less this thread has been very informational.

[Anthony Calfo]

I think its more a matter of trusting (and comparing) the analysis that some manufacturers have paid to have done on their products if you are not interested in paying to have one done on your own cultured phyto (hundreds of dollars to have done).

Its not impossible to know the quality of of your/our home-grown phyto, of course. So... the ocean analogy doesn't stick for me.

And while I do';t see a very big difference in most established brands of sea salt, for example,... I do see a (very) big difference in the quality of typically home grown phyto versus lab cultured from the likes of folks like DT (or anyone that invests in the equipment/labs/chillers/research to make a better phyto).

Its just one of those examples where a mfg product really does stand out.

We could not have the same conversation about frozen mysids, FD krill or nori algae, for example. These foods are so similar enough (nutritional assays) between brands that an argument about which is better is not worth the time invested.

So do I think home-grown phyto is "bad?" Heck no. Withstanding some junk fertilizers that push metals/contaminants though to your system.

Do I think home-grown phyto is very helpful for some filter feeders we keep? Heck yeah! Please... do grow it if you cannot afford better/bottled.

Do I think home-grown is inferior to the better lab cultured products? Yep.

Do I think the bottled "better" phyto products are worth buying instead of culturing in light of how relatively little is needed in most systems and for how much I value the health of my animals? Yep again.

For me... if I'm going to feed it/such things to my system at all... and believe it works/is useful, then I do not want to use anything inferior when a better option is readily available.

Most folks overestimate just how much phyto is actually needed in a system. And as such... overestimate the expense of using commercial products in turn.

[ezhoops]

Anthony, you make a great point and another topic worthy or further discussion.

1. HOW MUCH PHYTO IS REALLY NEEDED IN A SYSTEM?

2. WHAT DO YOU BASE THIS ON?

3. HOW WOULD YOU MEASURE YOUR PHYTO DENSITY IN A SYSTEM?



thanks, hope these are answerable questions

[Anthony Calfo]

at issue is what can be measured quantitatively (but expensively/tedious at least)... and what can be estimated with practical means by average hobbyists.

Most folks fall into the latter category.

So when you start adding say .5 oz of home-grown phyto to your system per 100 gall, and notice little or no increase in... say, skimmate production, but then ramp up to adding 2 oz of phyto per 100 gallons of water and notice a distinct increase in skimmate production - its gotta make you wonder

In kind... if the addition of phyto seemingly doubled the growth of your cluster fanworm population (ascidians, poriferans... whatever)... but the tripling of yor phyto dose did not further multiply the population, you have to wonder again.

Another poor man's test to get you in the ballpark: test your DOC levels at the start and track them over time. Were they the same or similar in the weeks prior to light phyto feeding but steadily climbed as the use/abuse of phyto by volume also increased?

This might be telling about the phyto that was excess but did not get skimmed out obviously, but dissolved instead.

You will also notice a steady fall/flattening of RedOX values from a persistent overfeeding of most anything. This indirectly reflects food/nutrients that are not banked (used by living organisms) or exported (ala skimmer for example), but instead have dissolved and become a burden to water quality.

Indeed... these are not scientifically exact by any measure... but then again, they are part of the reality that we can decipher in trends of water quality.

In my opinion, phyto use is very helpful; in small regular (I do daily) quantities. But it is commonly overused in aquaria that are dominated by zooplankton feeding corals.

[Bugger]

Culture tecniques used by DT's can be imatated. In not all that convinced that Dt's is better then my cultures. I nice little project would to see actual comparison done. The guy at DT's said there is a decress in EDT when phytoplanton in the dark cycle he then siad that his cultures are on a 24 hour light cycle and there EDT levels never drop. What happense when those cultures go into there bottled package. (darkcycle) they are refridgerated so I assume that EDT holds up but Im not really sure what happense. Phytoplanton is at its most nutritious when havested at a certain time and cared for in a certain way. I think The man's comments are mostly to promote his product. There separation tecniques must be done with screens of some kind.

[Anthony Calfo]

And more from senior Tagrin...

He seems disappointed that some folks will make offhand judgements without taking the time to define/research their assertions.

I can't say I blame him.

Bugger... please be more open-minded about the information being shared here by D. Tagrin and others. Even ask yourself how likely you think it is that any(!) other phyto manufacturer would be to answering questions posed to them and granting permission to reprint them! Your stated opinion dismissing Tagrin's information as being self-serving is... ignorant at best. To be clear, are you saying that you believe his info to be largely false? And if you agree that his information seems sound and reasonable, then why should it not stand on its own merit to the benefit of his investment/business? Please... think before you speak.

Mr. Tagrin did not start this thread nor find it. I wanted answers to questions posed here, and he was one of the few (perhaps only) industry person I knew that would readily answer our questions. If you can't be gracious, I'll ask you to say nothing at all then... in my forum at large.

Mr. Tagrin's followup:


1. When my product is packaged it is not in a dark cycle, it is dormant. The difference is that when phytoplankton is cultured in a light/dark cycle it develops a cycle of cell growth in the light cycle and cell division in the dark cycle. That is not the same as harvesting it, processing it, refrigerating it and packaging it. The phytoplankton maintains its nutritional value because it is dormant.
2. I did not add Chlorella in order to prevent hobbyist from using my product to culture their own, I added Chlorella to provide a larger particle size and additional nutrients. Multiple species cultures will be more nutritious because of the additional nutrients including micro-nutrients that are not omega3 fatty acids.
3. I was asked about some issues concerning the culture of phytoplankton and have answered truthfully, hobbyists who do not like the answers should do their own research. The fact is that I culture phytoplankton for a living and I was kind enough to pass along some important facts concerning what is necessary to produce high levels of fatty acids in Nannochloropsis. I did so in order to help hobbyists who want to raise fish larvae to be more successful. Nannochloropsis must be cultured within a specific salinity and temperature range. You need a good source of nutrients and trace metals in the proper proportions and the potency of vitamins do matter. I brought up the effects of culturing in a light/dark cycle because it effects the nutritional quality of the phytoplankton. There are other aspects that I could get into concerning the advantage of continuous culture over batch culture but it is a point for commercial operations such as my facility or a bivalve farm, not hobbyists. Culturing high quality phytoplankton is not difficult but it is not simple, culturing greenwater is. I do not want to get into a debate concerning the use of my product verses growing your own, that is not what I got into this discussion about. I do not expect the people who are growing their own to stop, I just want you to know what it takes to produce a higher quality food. I developed my product for use directly into reef tanks and have a process to clean and concentrate the phytoplankton.

[Bugger]

Yes maybe I crossed the line. So Im sorry! take a look at Marine Fish and Reef 2002 Annual. Planktonic Foods, Live nanno is plotted on almost the same line as DT's.

[Moreta]

Anthony, would you please thank Mr. Tagrin for all the great information, it is greatly appreciated. I've bookmarked this one for future reference.

[Puffer Queen]

A big thanks to Dennis for sharing !

Kelly

[Anthony Calfo]

I will be sure to do so my friends... we will all benefit from constructive dialogues (versus pot shots, speculation, etc.).

kindly,

Anth-

[Triterium]

Very good thread. I have been culturing my own phyto for several years now. Ive tried many species but prefer Nannochloropsis. I mainly use for copepods, rotifers, brine shrimp etc.

I do believe DTs is better than using homegrown but ive always wondered how much. Mr Tagrin said the... "Nannochloropsis must be cultured within a specific salinity and temperature range". I have grown Nannochloropsis in freshwater with very good success. I am curious if he has any data on the difference in EPA values between a culture grown in fresh compared to sea water.

Im also curious as to how much of a drop in EPA levels are seen in cultures with higher temps (ie 75 degrees).

[seafarm]

Hi Triterium,

Nannochloropsis is by far the easiest of the marine algae species to grow. It also represents about 90% of the algae used in marine fish hatcheries around the world. We have about 6 acres of Nannochloropsis in commercial production and have been experimenting with it for over 10 years to produce the highest fatty acid profiles. We've found the highest EPA values at between 22-26C, all other variables being equal. At that range we consistently maintain a lipid total of over 27%, and over 30% of that total being EPA. At 32C the lipid profile starts to fall pretty quickly.

This really is a great thread - Thank you Anthony for your insights.