Protein Skimmer Production/Improvements

[masson]

I have a question. Why do some remoras produce tons while others (such as mine produce almost nothing.)
Here is a pic
One period form Sunday to Friday

I’ve already invested in a real skimmer so I don’t need to fix this one . But I would like to hear reasons about the remora’s performance.

Thanks
Masson


P.S. sorry if this has already been answered

[Anthony Calfo]

Carson... your skimmer (ER knock-off) really is a fine skimmer... you should not need to go through this much trouble to get it to work. And I do think you are overanalyzing it all my friend. I cannot say it any clearer (surely you can understand this from previous posts):

With your venturi "closed" and no other source of air being injected (air pump), yet you are still getting good (better) foam with the pump only running - you have a (fortunate) leak somewhere that is aspirating a fine stream of air. IMO... the venturi line is simply leaking somewhere (connections or inside of the valve/closure).

My advice: raise the water level now and enjoy a skimmer that works as it was designed too!

The pinhole aspiration of air from wherever (!) is doing exactly what folks hope to do/get from precision needle valves or venturis.

Don't look this gift (dead and beaten) horse in the mouth, as it were

[Anthony Calfo]

masson... do look back through this thread (start at the beginning... HOB/Remora style skimmers are mentioned specifically... they are fabulous units)

Rook... yes, you do need to count the ancillary vessels of your system like your fuge when you have live, respiring organisms in them (algae, fish, corals, etc). But please (!) do not obsess over tank volume re: skimmer size ratings. It is wholly and only about the bioload and how you handle it (water changes, feeding, stocking, etc). A tank with one 20" grouper is a heavier bioload than a tank with twenty 1" cardinal fishes... same cumulative fish length... different bioloads.

[Studioksr]

I am still following the discussion on Carson's problems and have a couple terms I would like to understand better.

Could you explaing more about Aspiration and needle-valves -- or is there place that defines these and might have diagrams so I can better understand?

btw -- I added an airpump to my airline input to skimmer (as you suggested to Carson,) and it definitely improved skimming -- bubbles are actually reaching the top of the collection cup and slowly spilling over the top into the cup. So, I need to figure out the next step -- where do I go from here to improve performance further, and make it possible to remove the air pump so I don't keep chewing up extra electricity.

[Anthony Calfo]

cheers, Studioksr

Is there a specific question to help me/help you? What is it that you don't understand, mate?

It all really boils down to having enough very fine bubbles.

All of the things we do are for this purpose: higher flow pumps to draw in more bubbles... better engineered venturis to reduce bubble size... and post-prod modifications of flawed designs with adding airstones to increase air/bubbles overall.

Its all about airflow/volume.

Barometric pressure (temporarily) increased bubble size.

Large bore venturis produce larger bubbles which are worse for producing protein collecting foam.

Mixed sized bubbles do not produce as good/as much skimmate as consistently fine bubbles.

Hmmm... not sure what more there is to say. I fear I am repeating myself at the expense of making this thread too long to be useful

[Studioksr]

I just didn't really understand the mechanics of a needle wheel and what it is and where it fits into the skimmer/venturi/pump equation -- I think I was getting confused with a needle impeller. I do get it now . . . thanks

I looked back through this thread for the zillinonth time -- am learning a lot, but there's a lot of nuance to learn also. I looked at the Kent Marine venturi and needle wheel you posted a few pages back and spoke to someone at MarineDepot -- that helped a lot.

I'm sorry if many questions are repetitive or tedious -- remember we do greatly appreciate the help. I just wanted to not be hung up on detail which can cloud understanding of the general principle and makes it difficult to make my own decision when faced with all the options in the marketplace -- some don't fit my pump, or space, or budget, or . . .. etc.

[Travis]

Hi Anthony,

First of all I would like to say great thread! I have a question about my MRC MR-6 (48" dual beckett) skimmer fed by a Sequence 3200. I am able to get the reaction chamber filled with nice fine micro-bubbles but every 2 seconds or so I get a "burp" where a large bubble (around .5-1" around) will enter the chamber and rapidly rise to the top. This seems to have an effect on the foam head that is created at the top of the riser tube. I think I would have a much more "stable" foam head without the frequent "burps" that cause it to "pop". Don't get me wrong, I love this skimmer and it performs as well, if not better than I expect it to. Do you have any idea what could be causing the burps. I can post some pics of the plumbing if that will help but I really don't think it is due to any leaks in the plumbing.

Also, I haven't heard you mention it in this thread but do you recommend using air filters for our skimmers? For me, I have to use one because my tank (in-wall setup) sits in the same room as my washer and dryer. Whenever I dry something with a dryer sheet in the dryer it will cause my skimmer to stop foaming for a while. I added a 2 foot length of 1.5" pvc filled with carbon with some cotton balls on each end to filter air. This keeps my skimmer skimming no matter what is in the air. During the summer I run the intake to this filter outside (can't do it in the winter as it causes my intakes to freeze up by the injectors). I feel this helps keep the ph of my tank higher when it is hot outside and the house is all closed up. I also feel it is necessary to use the carbon filter as the mosquito patrol truck drives by at random times in the summer spraying insecticide in the air. I would hate to have this get in my tank and wreak havoc.

[masson]

I was asking why mine and others didnt work.... other have said that our water was somehow different.

[Anthony Calfo]

Studioksr... no worries. Understood And if any of my posts ever seem curt or brusque, do be assured that it is usually just from being a little overwhelmed with mail/workload. I also struggle a bit at times with a tendency to be an enabler, and a desire not to be

Travis, you bring up some excellent points. An air filter is a fab idea and great example of finessing husbandry with little things that most folks overlook, but nonetheless improve tank health. Indeed, particulates and aromatics on homes (air fresheners, burning Teflon pans, household chemicals/cleaning agents, tobacco, etc) can all be somewhat to very toxic to our pets. And while the tank hardly exists in a vacuum... the high flow into the skimmers amplifies the import of these contaminants (processing it faster).

You also mentioning running the air intake outside in the summer. This can be VERY helpful for raising pH in well insulated homes that have accumulated CO2 during such times (closed doors/windows)

As for your skimmer burping... nt sure my friend. But it certainly can/does interrupt foam collection/climbing. Do call Andy D. of MRC... hes a wonderful chap making fine skimmers. He may be the very best person to tweak this for you

Please do update us with/if the solution.

kindly,

Anthony

[deansreef]

anthony,

what are you thoughts on the etss 600 skimmer.

I have one for my 180 sps tank.

[Studioksr]

Today I spoke to the guy who designed my skimmer, and he suggested it would be better off deeper in the sump, but this contradicts everything I have read or been advised. Currently my skimmer sits in about 4 inches of water in a dedicated compartment of my sump where water level remains the same. If placed on the bottom of the sump, it would sit in about 10 inches of water, which he said would be great, but I was so stunned by this suggestion, that I don't understand why this might be an advantage. Before I make any more changes (just when the skimmer finally is working . . . a bit . . .) can anyone think of any advantage to having the skimmer deeper in the sump? The skimmer is 23 inches tall from the base to the top of the collection cup.

thanks

[ahenson]

Anthony I appreciate your time amid all of your commitments. I have 2 skimmers. I have a Euro es5-2 and a Schuran jet skim 200. The Schuran I put the pump in a small rubbermaid container with the raw water from the tank feeding it. It helped a lot.
My question is the euro, the pump is so close to the exit riser. Would putting the whole skimmer in a salt bucket be that much better than in the sump? My concern is the output of the skimmer recirculating in the skimmer container. What do you suggest? My sump is a open 20g
Thanks
Andy

[Anthony Calfo]

Studioksr... I certainly cannot say for certain why Andy suggested deeper placement. It would be well worth another phone call. But I do have an idea - my guess is that the concern/belief is that in your shallow pool (4") of water, air mixed with crashing water from above is being drawn into the skimmer pump. Thus... a deeper install would reduce the bubbles (they cannot penetrate as deep before rising and escaping). The goal seems to be to get the sump below the penetrating bubbles. Thus... the problem is not the sump depth, but rather the admission/action of air into the skimmer pump.

A solution: feed all raw water into a tall narrow vessel (top cut off a 2 liter soda bottle) so that the bubbles dissipate with the rising/overflowing water. This soda bottle can be sitting in your open sump as long as your sump level is kept wickedly stable for improved skimmer performance as per the reasons in the posts above in this thread. Or... the tall narrow diffusive vessel can sit inside the skimmer well/chamber itself.

On one hand, we don't want to overcomplicate the sump with too many partitions or vessels within vessels... but in this case we are first addressing the crashing air/water issue with the tall, narrow overflow vase ... then the skimmer is captured (with the overflow vase, so to speak) in a narrow box/bucket, partition or well itself to concentrate protein rich water from above. It literally could be as simple as a 2-liter soda bottle sitting within (overflowing to) a plastic shoebox that is sitting in (overflowing to) the sump. Thus... for a few mere dollars... you have eliminated the burping air problem... and then improved the quality of water making it to the skimmer (concentrating it).

I am sure that sitting the skimmer in a deeper well/sump of water will not improve skimmer performance overall. There is a better way... and it is not that expensive here Kudos to Andy though for diagnosing the cause of the burps/bursts of air.

[Studioksr]

Hi Anthony, I appreciate your quick response, but I realize you are getting tired and mixing a couple of us with each other.

I don't have the burping skimmer, just the one that doesn't get enough air bubbles to actually produce skimmate -- until I added an air pump into the tube that goes to the tiny venturi that I have -- now I get skimmate rising over into the collection cup -- just barely creeping over.

So, I really dont understand Carlos said to put the skimmer deeper. I watched the bubble production while raising and lowering the skimmer in my hands up and down the sump at various levels -- and observed much less bubbles and larger ones at that when the skimmer was deeper in the sump.

So, I take it from your response that there isn;t really a good reason in my case to lower the skimmer?

thanks very much anyway!

By the way, I looked into the Kent Marine venturi and it looks good, but Carlos (of my skimmer company) said that is for larger skimmers -- I simply cannot find any smaller venturis out there, and kind of wanted to try the Kent. What would happen if the venturi is too large - long, ? not sure how it is too big.

[Anthony Calfo]

deansreef... do compare the pump size required on your skimmer to other efficient/popular skimmers... and compare the cost too... then factor in the other big influences on your buying decision: space available, aesthetic, brand/image, etc. These are some of the things that contribute to a buying decision of a skimmer.

As for my opinion... it is writ repeatedly in this thread, and last months reefkeeping.com feature, on WWM, most every lecture I give (monthly for years), etc.

But to save you some reading... I'll say that I have yet to see/use a skimmer over $500 that was a good value.

This ETSS model (600) costs nearly $600 with the recommended pump to drive it (Iwaki 40 or equiv). But does it actually produce twice as much skimmate as an Aqu C Remora... or an ASM G-2?

If it were my tank... I would have invested about the same amount of money or less and gotten two of the latter models and perhaps be getting 2X skimmate. I'd also have the benefit of two different styles of skimmers for potentially different qualities of skimmate. I'd also have more consistent skimmate production for having two skimmers that are cleaned alternately (minimizing interruption of skimmate production). I'd also have greater processing/capacity by the mfg specs (for what they are worth... vis a vis one ETSS 600 rated for 100-300 gall tanks versus two ASM G2's rated for 200 galls each (400 gall system).

My recommendations and own preferences are based principally on value and "bang for your buck"

Your buying decisions need not agree with that. I can understand and appreciate other motivations for making such purchases. For perspective... the ETTS is made waaaaay better than the ASM skimmers (although the AquaC models are very much on par with ETSS IMO. So, the quality of materials may play a bigger role in your buying decision and shift in favor of the ETSS in such cases.

[Anthony Calfo]

Studioksr... ughhh Sorry mate! Indeed, confusion... maybe some old age too

[Anthony Calfo]

Studioksr... indeed, I can see no advantage/need for placing the skimmer at greater depth. And your savvy test of observing the effects while raising and lowering the unit illuminate some of this.

As for the "larger" venturi... I suspect that you can at least use the Kent 1/2" venturi. Again.... I really am not a fan of any Kent products. But for such a cheap price... I do believe it may well be worth the effort/investment. And frankly I think Carlos is mistaken here or perhaps we all have some stories crossed. Both the 1/2" and 3/4" Kent venturis can be run effectively with medium sized powerheads (~400 gph). Even better with larger water pumps.

[ItsMee]

Anthony, I thought you posted a link on how to make your own skimmer with PVC...I went through all 11 pages and couldnt find/missed it. Could you please post again? Also, how much does it cost to make your own?

[Anthony Calfo]

the diagram is of an old DIY Nilsen style skimmer. Really a very (!) labor intensive counter-current design (daily adjustments are needed). But in commercial applications (such as coral farming when daily attention is paid to all tanks faithfully) it is very fine, and can actually outperform most commercial skimmers.

but it is not plug and play... and it is not a recommended first choice IMO.

I strongly suggest that most folks pursue a good commercial model like mentioned above.

[deansreef]

Hi Anthony,

I bought this skimmer and the Iwaki pump used for 350.00.

I hope that it skims well for me.

[Travis]

deansreef, you will need to change the plumbing and placement of that skimmer. With the drain going "up and over" into the sump you are actually going to have the water level in the skimmer right at the top of the riser tube. There won't be any room for foam to be produced. This could be solved by either a) elevating the skimmer so that the drain is above the sump water level and is draining "down" into the sump or b) placing the skimmer in the sump raised up high enough that the drain is at the water level. What you need to acheive to get that skimmer to perform is to not have any (much) back pressure on the drain.

Sorry Anthony if I stepped on your toes answering this one. Figured you could use a break for a change.

[Anthony Calfo]

much appreciation Travis! Indeed... I do need the help But more importantly, the forums are public and input from all is quite welcome to help us all form a consensus/learn, etc.

Do feel welcome to chime in on any/all threads

deansreef... at $350 with an Iwaki pump (my fav brand)... is a fab deal and a very good value. Excellent purchase.

[deansreef]

thanks Anthony,

i will post pics when I have my manifold and skimmer up and running..

Dean

[deansreef]

Travis,

i have drilled a bulkhead into the sump and now have a straight pipe running from the skimmer into the sump

[petergillett]

Anthony

Read your detailed info on skimming. Very informative! Picked up a few tips which has now left me in a dilema!!!

My naive past (pre yesterdays reading) was much easier before I knew the details, and didn't worry about it!

Anyway, I've got a sump supplied from overflows as per this diagram.



I know the optimum would be to send the feeds straight into the skimmer, but it's going to be too hard to change that now. So I'm tweaking the position of the pump.

I used to have it in position A. But after reading about extracting from the surface I thought about moving it. Bearing in mind this is a very small section of my sump, would I be right in thinking the nutrient rich water that's tumbled down the overflows would be pretty mixed up by the time it hits the sump? ie. position wouldn't make a lot of difference?

My alternatives were to stuff the pump intake up one of the overflow pipes - get the water first hand. (B)

Or put the intake at (C) and drag from the surface. Will this work? The pump has to go slightly below the surface or it will just "whirlpool" and drag air.

Or from section (D), a surface will reform as the water flows under the next wier and it won't be broken again.

I'm thinking that in the absence of sending the water straight to skimmer, that (D) may actually be the optimum, but again could suffer from the same issue as (C) above?

Or am I going totally over the top worrying about nothing because any will be equally as good??!?!

Thanks in advance.