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#176
11/20/2007, 10:13 AM
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hmmmm........well, I can't tell ya why lower ALK is more ideal with Bac systems but from my experience, my reading here and on the ZEO Forums, it has me convinced that it is the way to go.
 My tank has been Bac driven for over 2 years. There is always an exception to the rule and since you have only recently started dosing more carbon, I would watch your corals carefully over the next few weeks.
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KIRSTEN REDUCE, REUSE, RECYCLE they paved paradise and put up a parking lot. |
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#177
11/20/2007, 10:15 AM
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Perhaps the methods are different. From what I gathered, dosing vodka is simply a way of growing lots of planktonic bacteria, which uses up C, N, P, and is then skimmed out.
Pappone uses sugar mixed with food. I haven't researched the method, but I'd assume the bacterial growth promoted by the sugar is somehow tied into the feeding of the corals, no?
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Peter Click my red house to see my tank :-) |
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#178
11/20/2007, 10:16 AM
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Also, if you try to wade through that thread mbbuna posted a link to, you'll see that even the brainy people didn't really come up with an accepted theory about high alk causing burning tips in bac driven systems.
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Peter Click my red house to see my tank :-) |
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#179
11/20/2007, 10:27 AM
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Pappone method also uses a hormone which I am pretty sure is not available in the US. The use of this hormone may have some effect on the Pappone tanks which in turn allows for the ALK to be maintained at higher levels........???.....
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KIRSTEN REDUCE, REUSE, RECYCLE they paved paradise and put up a parking lot. |
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#180
11/20/2007, 10:28 AM
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Oh, yes, I just starting looking at that and WOW, I'm still confused! Anyhow, the timing of my post is pretty funny, since my lights came on just now and I am noticing that the purple tips of my Valida (which is the highest coral in my tank) are lightening considerably along the top edges...
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#181
11/20/2007, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
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#182
11/20/2007, 10:43 AM
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The Blu Coral method uses this hormone (HGH), the pappone method does not, though... Pappone is just the food part of the equation, plus amino acids, but without the HGH.
You should not look at these as two seperate methods, they are not. Using only part of a method is going to achieve different results, keep that in mind. That's what I was getting at.
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KIRSTEN REDUCE, REUSE, RECYCLE they paved paradise and put up a parking lot. |
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#183
11/20/2007, 11:03 AM
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Quote:
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..no vemos las cosas como son las vemos como somos nosotros... |
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#184
11/20/2007, 11:20 AM
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Quote:
My intent for this system was to run 'Italian style" so I elevated my params, but have gone really slow with the alk due to this fear of 'burnt tips'. Another variable though is that I'm using Seachem salt, so due to the elevated borate alkalinity, I may only be running 8 dkh There is something though. In a system with very limited N, where do the corals get their N (assuming little feeding/bioload), could this be the issue with tip burning? The tips afterall are the fastest growing parts of many sps. If the coral was N limited, wouldn't we see this effect in the area of fastest growth, i.e. the tips? |
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#185
11/20/2007, 03:44 PM
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somatropin, is very expensive and very unstable. it must be maintained at ~34F IIRC. i highly doubt it plays any equation in the alk mystery of baterioplankton systems. as has been said before and i agree with, "it is just one expensive AA supplement". BluCoral/Pappone includes sugar to help battle the N&P negative effects from a heavy dose of meaty foods. it probably helps feed the corals as well...but it is much different that a 100%bacterioplankton system such as zeo or prodibio and ime not subject to the NSW param issues.
if look at the AA sequence that makes of HGH you can see specifically what it "breaks" down to. i doubt that i breaks down completely into the single aa's, but it gives you an idea. after experimenting a lot with AA's, ime the aa profile of HGH isnt even that good of one for our tanks. keep in mind not all the aa's are readily available in a water soluble form...but after alot of trial and error i believe it. there are many studies showing which are actualy utilized by corals...some are utilized at day some at night etc. re: STN-Alk....after a recent alk drop to 5.5dkh, with C-dosing i experienced some bad STN. after bringing it up to 7 dkh, i can already see corals re-growing in the areas. ok i should get back to studying for my exams  eric
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red|house|blog "i like bubbly, and i love animals - so it works out well" "there are a lot of people out there who think they have a modern house simply because they have alot of steel in it" |
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#186
11/20/2007, 03:50 PM
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Sorry to hear that Eric. Good luck studying...
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#187
11/21/2007, 11:42 AM
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Greetings All !
Interesting thread ...  Quote:
 "Accepted theory" ... hmmm ... accepted by whom? By the folks who never pass up the opportunity to assault something they will forever view as "snake oil"? By the true-believers who've concluded that the only meaningful variable in reefkeeping is the Dollar vs. Euro exchange rate? Whose agreement is required for a theory to be "accepted"? ...  Perhaps "the brainy people" (... do you mean the folks who actually make the effort and take the time to share the documentation that what they're saying is something more than mere opinion? ...) were unwilling to get into it further because of the all too predictable cyber-savagery from either the folks who value storytime & picture sharing more than peer-reviewed research, or, from the folks who believe that their research literature preferences and field experiences are the only valid, legitimate data sources. Just a thought ... Happily, there is reasonable conversation to be had, but not in the general internet medium. Some folks might be surprised at the depth & insight of discussions that are going on off-line ... JMO ... narff ! (*) Are you pondering what I'm pondering? Reference: Pinky and the Brain http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinky_a...E2.80.A6.3F.22 General Background http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinky_and_the_brain
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Mesocosm Last edited by mesocosm; 11/21/2007 at 11:52 AM. |
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#188
11/21/2007, 11:45 AM
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Greetings all !
FWIW ... The blending of observations from systems applying Prodibio, Fauna Marin, ZEOvit, Blu Coral, Pappone stragey, and vodka dosing is problematic. As most of you are well aware, each of these systems/methodologies have their own characteristics, and I doubt that there is anything resembling 1:1 correspondence. JMO ... My "photo-acclimation" response in the other thread was my way of trying to initiate further discussion about the "alkalinity thing". You may have noticed how badly this choice crashed and burned ...  If you think about it, photo-acclimation is not too bad of an entry point into an arguably nebulous, ill-defined realm of reefkeeping ... it leads straight to the critical variables. The variables include degree of autotrophy, degree of heterotrophy, nitrogen limitation, zooxanthellae reproduction, zooxanthellae expulsion, zooxanthellae photosynthetic behavior, zooxanthellae protein synthesis, host metabolism, host protein synthesis, host stress response, and host cell necrosis. This is not an argument for the all too accepted hobbyist-level cop-out that too many variables are in play for us to figure things out. Mine is an argument that the variables are known, and that if we post with some reasonable amount of specificity, we can go a long way towards understanding what's really going on. But it will take some sorting through ... For example, when we use terms like "RTN" or "STN", are we talking about tissue necrosis (death of cells), or zooxanthellae expulsion ("bleaching")? If we're talking about tips that "go white" and later recover ... we were really talking about zooxanthellae expulsion. If we're talking about "burnt tips" that preceed a specimen's decline ... we were really talking about cellular death. I respectfully suggest that such distinctions are important, and that taking a few extra moments to make the distinction will help immensely ... JMO ... HTH
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Mesocosm Last edited by mesocosm; 11/21/2007 at 11:57 AM. |
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#189
11/21/2007, 11:46 AM
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Greetings All !
Quote:
There IS a relationship between carbon dosing, alkalinity levels, bacterial respiration (holobiont), skeletogenesis, and host metabolism. Not JMO ... this is the science.
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Mesocosm |
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#190
11/21/2007, 11:49 AM
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Greetings All !
Quote:
Ask yourself, why do the folks in ZEOville oftentimes recommend that lights be raised (decrease light intensity) when alkalinity level is > 8 dKH, and tip bleaching has taken place? More importantly, why does this strategy "work" in the majority of cases? And just as interestingly ... why does it not always "work"? Think about it ... Throwing out, in terms of my comments, the Blu Coral Method (... we really don't having anything either useful or meaningful to say about steriod dosing in a captive marine ecosystem, do we? Say it ain't so ...), the two common strands that run through the various bacterioplankton products lines and strategies are these: (1) Nitrogen limitation, and (2) Increased Bacterial Respiration. You might want to start with these two as you try to unravel things ... JMO ... out ... narfff !
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Mesocosm |
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#191
11/21/2007, 12:42 PM
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a. I have no idea what AYPWIP stands for
b. You clearly took some offense to my comments, when none was intended. I apologize.  c. "Accepted theory" was a bad choice of words on my part. I simply meant with respect to an agreement at the end of the thread linked to by mbbuna. d. I'm a brainy person. Nothing wrong with brainy people. That was not an insult whatsoever And please don't limit your discussions/posts because you feel that they go against the "norm" of many hobbyists. Some of us like to read a "brainier" side of things Just because someone likes to post pics of their coral, doesn't mean they don't like to think about/discuss various theories and aspects of their reef tank husbandry/chemistry.Quote:
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Peter Click my red house to see my tank :-) Last edited by SDguy; 11/21/2007 at 12:56 PM. |
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#192
11/21/2007, 12:47 PM
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I completely agree that we can get a better picture of what's going on through more thorough and precise observation. While I still don't think it can lead to proving "this" causes "that", I think we can come up with bretter theories.
My "burnt tip" instance was very specific. The tips noticeably grew in a period of a day or two, in a very bulbous fashion. The tissue then receeded (not bleached), leaving exposed skeleton. Quote:
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Peter Click my red house to see my tank :-) |
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#193
11/21/2007, 04:50 PM
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Quote:
Here's his footnote from that very same post: Quote:
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Marc Levenson - member of DFWMAS |
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#195
11/22/2007, 12:26 AM
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Quote:
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#196
11/22/2007, 12:31 AM
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Quote:
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#197
11/22/2007, 12:53 AM
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I should have been more specifc, yes, I do get burnt tips running alkalinity higher than 8 dKH on zeo systems.... I've also had RTN and STN too
I haven't experienced anything like that due to running a vodka-based system (that I happen to dose some bacteria too, zeo, prodibio) with higher levels of alkalinity. I've not raised light fixtures, I just do not have the time... I do tend to move specimens lower in the display though.... I've seen a couple of Europeans that indicate that they substitute vodka when out of Start2, though I doubt that it's due to a difference in % ethanol, or a particular sugar (could be wrong though). What's interesting about Peter's situation is that he uses a CaRx which I'll assume (he's a smart guy) is "dialed" and found his alk increased, why? Was it an issue of the bacteria population reaching a certain level, increasing carbonic acid/bicarbonates? Or was it due to a decrease in calcification due to N limitation, and thus the burnt tips or STN (coral getting a source of N as a survival mechanism - I don't think so?!?). I'm not seeing this using vodka, but I'd wager that I feed more than average... I guess going down the photoinhabition path, we could say that Peter's water clarity increased and thus this was adaptation by his corals. I'm going to say that I doubt this, he started using ozone on his big beckett ( any coincidence Peter?). ( Do you run carbon, actively, before and after this? I do on all systems, despite what Zeo recommends) Going down the N limitation path, well despite ample N in the water column, could rate of calcification and resulting tissue growth exceed the rate which the coral to absorb N from the water column? Aka, the claims from certain gurus that Zeo is starving corals thus the great color (not going to name names ).Again, more questions than answers.... everyone Happy Thanksgiving, safe travels.... Quote:
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#198
11/26/2007, 12:58 AM
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This thread has been nominated for Thread of the Month. If you liked it and think it is worthy, you can vote here:
Poll for ThOTM
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Marc Levenson - member of DFWMAS |
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#199
11/28/2007, 12:23 PM
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Anyone with TN have any updates?
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#200
11/29/2007, 11:56 AM
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My basal recession has stopped, but as of yet there is no regrowth (I doubt there will be). The tricolor tips are completely regrown, and very purple. Many of my other acros are starting to show some really nice colors through the brown (blue milli actually gettinmg blue again, not maroon)
I stopped dosing for a couple days while I waited for my alk to lower. Once my alk was below 9 dKH, I resumed dosing a steady 6mL per day. So far, so good. I can only theorize that I ramped up my vodka too quickly, causing all sorts of tank issues (spiking alk, stop in tip growth, basal recession, poor PE). I'm suspecting lower pH is also an issue, as once when I left my ATO with kalk on too long, and the pH jumped, the corals looked very good, with nice PE....I'll try this again just to experiment.
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Peter Click my red house to see my tank :-) |
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