Should I Run 12 guage wire from breaker?

mrrrkva · #1 07/24/2007, 08:44 PM

I am in the beginnings of building my fish room. I am going to have a tank between 180 gal, and 300 gallons. Should I run 12 guage electrical from my fuse box with a 30 amp breaker. WIll this be enough?

jamielind · #2 07/24/2007, 08:48 PM

u can only run 20 amps off 12 wire

mrrrkva · #3 07/24/2007, 09:00 PM

I know I can only run 20amp outlets, but can I put a 30 amp breaker or just stick with the 20 amp breaker. Should I run a double 20 amp breaker. I am sorry, ignorant when it comes to figuring that out. Thanks for your help

tkeracer619 · #4 07/24/2007, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mrrrkva
I am sorry, ignorant when it comes to figuring that out.

Ignorance and electricity don't mix. You need to hire an electrician if you intend to modify your home. Its easy to burn your house down.

screamincamaro · #5 07/24/2007, 09:12 PM

I would expect that if you run a wire only capable of supporting 20 amps you would not want to use a breaker greater than that.

rsw686 · #6 07/24/2007, 09:18 PM

The breaker is there to protect the wiring. 12 gauge wire is rated for 20 amps. If you put a breaker larger than 20 amps in you risk a fire from the wire heating up and melting the jacket. A double breaker is for 220v, which is two 110 wires. If you don't understand how this works you should really hire somebody to help you out. At the very least hire an electrician to double check your work.

mrrrkva · #7 07/24/2007, 09:43 PM

Definately have someone coming in to check everything. What I meant by a "double Breaker" is running 2 breakers 20 amps a piece to different outlets. Giving me less of a load and some redundancy on the pumps. I have a licensed electrician coming in to hook up the breaker and check my connections and outlets.
When I said I was ignorant, I was more ignorant on how many breakers to use and how many amps we really need. In the past and on most of the tanks I have seen in person only run 15 amp wiring and breakers and are very lucky to even be on a dedicated breaker. I was hoping to get some educated input on how many amps I should be counting on. The electrician said I went overboard on my home theater when I ran 12 guage wiring thoughout. He said 14 would of been fine.

MC Lighting · #8 07/24/2007, 09:55 PM

14 gauge overboard? you might hire an electrician with a brain I can easily pull up to 20 amps with my home theater... Real simple run 14 gauge wire you install a 15 amp breaker, run 12 gauge wire install a 20 amp breaker no "ifs" no "ands" and not "butts" For the record I have 2 20 amp 110v with 12 gauge wire circuits and it is realy not enough for my 180 wish I could have 3 but in an apartment it was hard enough to hide the new (cough cough) existing 20 amp circuit...

mrrrkva · #9 07/24/2007, 10:02 PM

That's what I was looking for, so should I run 3-20 amp circuits? I am getting close to adding another box as well. I think I might if I finish the rest of the basement. I have no regrets running 20 amps with my home theater especially with the sub pulling the power!

And another "shocker" question. SHould I run GFCI's on 2 of them and run 1 non gfci for the pumps only? I have just had tons of problems with the gfci's in the past.

lightdir · #10 07/24/2007, 10:07 PM

Unfortunately the standard household outlet is only rated for 15 amps.

MC Lighting · #11 07/24/2007, 10:12 PM

well realy you should not be having problems with gfci's unless you have faults with your equipment... personally the size and amount of power that these tanks run now I would go for the sub breaker box just because you don't use all of the slots does not mean it was a waste I personally would run say a 100 Amp sub panel with 3 GFCI breakers that way you have plenty to expand out the basement...

wooden_reefer · #12 07/25/2007, 01:51 PM

If the 30 amp breaker is needed for something else, you can put a 20-amp breaker in series and use 12 gauge wire for your fish stuff circuit.

smcnally · #13 07/25/2007, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MC Lighting
14 gauge overboard? you might hire an electrician with a brain I can easily pull up to 20 amps with my home theater...

He said the 12 awg wire was overboard, not the 14 awg. Depending on what he has in there, it could be overboard, but a killer surround amplifier with a full HT setup could absolutely trip a 15 amp circuit. The electrician probably figured two 15 amp circuits would have been sufficient in which case he would be correct. Same goes for the tank...a couple 15 amp circuits should be plenty for most setups. Unless you have a bunch of power hungry pumps, then even a single 20 amp circuit is usually fine.

Quote:

Originally posted by lightdir
Unfortunately the standard household outlet is only rated for 15 amps.

True...but you can always swap them out with 20 amp outlets

MC Lighting · #14 07/25/2007, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by smcnally
He said the 12 awg wire was overboard, not the 14 awg. Depending on what he has in there, it could be overboard, but a killer surround amplifier with a full HT setup could absolutely trip a 15 amp circuit. The electrician probably figured two 15 amp circuits would have been sufficient in which case he would be correct. Same goes for the tank...a couple 15 amp circuits should be plenty for most setups. Unless you have a bunch of power hungry pumps, then even a single 20 amp circuit is usually fine.

I don't understand why anyone would waste the money on installing 15 amp circuits in this day and age when a vacume cleaner can draw 14 amps by itself for the extra $5 - $10 it cost to run the 20 amp and be done with it...

Well my tank with the pumps (circ and CL), and hallide lighting, pc lighting for the second tank, heater amd such I pu;; on average around 17 amps amd that is without the chiller....

Quote:

True...but you can always swap them out with 20 amp outlets

ONLY if there is 12 gauge wire....

halcyon_diver · #15 07/25/2007, 06:04 PM

i ran 3 seperate 20 amp circuts to my tank..all having gfci protection and its more than ample, have had no problems...as MC lighting stated...i now wish i had run a sub panel..

Pmolan · #16 07/25/2007, 07:19 PM

I have 1-20 amp gfci breaker for my tank. 1134 watt hood and 4 power heads. Then I have 1-20 amp gfci breaker for the sump room.

The conversion of Watts to Amps is governed by the equation Amps = Watts/Volts

My hood is 1134 watts/110 volts = 10.3 amps, I have 9.7 left for power heads etc.. Try to figure it that way.

wooden_reefer · #17 07/25/2007, 08:05 PM

It is easier to pull 14 gauge in existing conduits

MC Lighting · #18 07/25/2007, 08:30 PM

Well most people in homes are running romex so that kind of is a mute point and if you are running conduit to a new sub panel then it does not matter as the conduit should be the correct size anyhow and if there is a bug enough difference that it is harder to pull a 12 gauge wire through a conduit vs. 14 gauge you have WAY to many wires in it anyhow....

Quote:

Originally posted by wooden_reefer
It is easier to pull 14 gauge in existing conduits

mrrrkva · #19 07/25/2007, 09:01 PM

It is harder to pull it thru the walls and thru the electrical outlet, so I just drill bigger holes and buy bigger boxes. 12 gauge is quite a bit more expensive $115 per roll vs $75) but worth it for the piece of mind (what's a $40 investment). Might as well do it right before I put the sheetrock up.

smcnally · #20 07/26/2007, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MC Lighting
I don't understand why anyone would waste the money on installing 15 amp circuits in this day and age when a vacume cleaner can draw 14 amps by itself for the extra $5 - $10 it cost to run the 20 amp and be done with it...

My tank doesn't have a vacuum cleaner on it, does yours?

Quote:

Originally posted by MC Lighting
Well my tank with the pumps (circ and CL), and hallide lighting, pc lighting for the second tank, heater amd such I pu;; on average around 17 amps amd that is without the chiller....

That seems like a big draw IMO, but are you saying this is for 2 tanks? A large tank with three 400W MH and two 1.5 amp pumps would draw 13.9 amps. That's pretty taxing on a 15 amp circuit, but that is why I suggested 2 circuits. Even at your 17 amp draw, two 15 amp circuits would be more than sufficient.

Don't get me wrong, I hear what you guys are saying "Why not just go with 20 amp and not worry about it?", but I also want people to know that two 15 amp circuits are perfectly acceptable for probably 90% of the tanks out there.

Quote:

Originally posted by MC Lighting
ONLY if there is 12 gauge wire....

Yeah, I should have said that...not only that, but if you do 20 amp circuits, you NEED to put 20 amp receptacles on it.

rsw686 · #21 07/26/2007, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by smcnally
Yeah, I should have said that...not only that, but if you do 20 amp circuits, you NEED to put 20 amp receptacles on it.

You know whats interesting is that my house has a handful of 20 amp circuits and wire run and the outlets on these circuits are 15 amp plugs. The builder built it this way so I'm thinking it is an acceptable practice in residential homes. They figure that appliances on one outlet won't draw more than 15.

AZDesertRat · #22 07/26/2007, 09:05 AM

If it has 15A outlets on a 20A circuit it does not meet electrical codes and the inspector should have been fired. I would look more closely at other electrical items than inspector may have green tagged myself. Kind of makes you worry if they cut corners like that.

smcnally · #23 07/26/2007, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by rsw686
The builder built it this way so I'm thinking it is an acceptable practice in residential homes. They figure that appliances on one outlet won't draw more than 15.

It's not an acceptable practice. If you're going to assume that the user will not draw more than a 15 amps (actually more like 12-13 amps), then you put in a 15 amp circuit. The problem is if you draw over 15 amps from one of those receptacles you could very easily start a fire.

rsw686 · #24 07/26/2007, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by AZDesertRat
If it has 15A outlets on a 20A circuit it does not meet electrical codes and the inspector should have been fired. I would look more closely at other electrical items than inspector may have green tagged myself. Kind of makes you worry if they cut corners like that.

I'm fairly sure it does meet code. I did a google search on it and the theory is you can't plug a 20 device in. There were multiple search responses saying it is acceptable. However if somebody didn't know better and plugged in multiple high draw appliances into a power strip you could have a problem. The other problem I foresee is daisy chanining of outlets use the back stab in slots to carry current, which seems to be a common practice.

I would never do this if I wired it. I'm just saying that it has been done and in residential homes you vary rarely see a 20amp plug but its common to have 20 amp breakers.

smcnally · #25 07/26/2007, 09:39 AM

I shouldn't have said it wasn't an acceptable practice since it is in a sense. From what I understand, it only meets code if there are multiple receptacles on the circuit. If there is only one receptacle on the circuit it should have a 20 amp receptacle. IMO, though, putting a 15 amp receptacle on a 20 amp circuit is kind of like adding an outlet to an existing 12 AWG circuit with 14 AWG wire. I've seen that a lot and that is definitely against code (at least in MA)