More stupid plumbing questions

Monkeyfish · #1 01/03/2008, 11:41 AM

Still working on the 180. Had to order my bulkheads from Savko.

1. Do I need to use primer/cement to secure the bulkheads to the drain pipes/returns? Bulkheads are slip-fits on both sides. I'll be using gate valves on the drains.

2. I'm using an Iwaki return pump. Should I secure it - screw into the stand/base or will the plumbing connection be good enough to hold it in place? (I'll be using true union ball valves on the intake and exit for the pump).

3. If I'm using a 3/4 inch bulkhead for the return on my sump, how big should the drilled hole be and how far above the plastic bottom rim/brace?

Thanks guys.

qy7400 · #2 01/03/2008, 12:20 PM

1. Cement the outside fittings, inside is your choice but I don't as recovering a fish from the overflow is easier or should you need to drain the overflow.

2. Yes secure the pump, another good idea is to use an old mouse pad under the pump to reduce the vibration noise.

3. Not sure I follow this question. Are you drilling a 3/4 BH for the return pump? Since that is how I read it... a 3/4 in BH usually requires a 1 1/2 in hole but its a good idea to double check the BH before you drill. I like to line the pump and plumbing up dry and mark the sump before you drill, this way you know exactly how everything will line up; if you need to change anything you can with little trouble as nothings cut, drilled or cemented.

Monkeyfish · #3 01/03/2008, 01:11 PM

Thanks. Sorry, about any confusion, but you did answer the questions I was trying to ask.

billsreef · #4 01/03/2008, 02:15 PM

Another good trick is too attach the pump to the sump with a short length of flexible hose. This way if your measurements are slightly off, you won't crack the sump, also it sucks up some vibration and reduces vibration noise along with the mouse pad

Monkeyfish · #5 01/03/2008, 03:26 PM

What kind of hose? Would the hose go from the bulkhead on the sump to the union valve?

billsreef · #6 01/03/2008, 04:06 PM

From the sump bulkhead, attach a hose barb, than a short length of reinforced vinyl hose to connect to a hose barb attached to the valve on the pump side.

shyland83 · #7 01/03/2008, 05:27 PM

i'll second that, i cracked my fuge because the hole was a little off. i used flexible pvc after i rreplaced the fuge and it was much more forgiving

DgenR8 · #8 01/03/2008, 06:09 PM

You can get flexible PVC from Savko.

fio1022 · #9 01/03/2008, 07:48 PM

I'd think hard about adding a valve on the drain.If you forget its closed or if it gets closed by accident=tank overflow.
I thought about adding drain valves but I know someday it would happen and decided not to.
On my first tank I installed a float/kill switch in case tank level got too high.

billsreef · #10 01/03/2008, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by fio1022
I'd think hard about adding a valve on the drain.

I missed the valves on the drain idea. Definitely a bad idea. The only possible purpose for valves on drain lines is to overflow your tank and make it one of those zero edge tanks by accident

qy7400 · #11 01/03/2008, 09:40 PM

I believe he's planning the union and valve are between the sump and pump not pump and tank.

shyland83 · #12 01/03/2008, 09:57 PM

i think he plans on doing both. read number 1, he says hes using gate valves. I have heard of people using valves on drain pipes to quiet them down. I think you need 2 drains to do it properly. On one drain you close the valve until lets through only as much flow as you need, then the second drain is a backup for when that inevitably can't keep up.

Monkeyfish · #13 01/04/2008, 10:47 AM

The original plan was to have gate valves on the drains from the tank to the sump. This way I could stop water from leaving the tank and if necessary control the drain flow. Not sure why this is a bad idea. The only reason they'd ever be closed would be an emergency situation. I'll install them open and leave them that way.

From sump to pump and pump to return I planned on using true union ball valves so I could remove the pump if necessary (cleaning, replacement, etc.). I don't plan on using them to restrict the flow, but to disconnect the pump if necessary. This should also keep water from draining out of the tank and sump while servicing/replacing the pump.

I'll definitely use the mouse pad for noise and flexible hose to connect the sump to the pump. I already have a 3/4" hose barb bulkhead for the sump. I'll just need to get some kind of adapter for the pump intake.

Monkeyfish · #14 01/04/2008, 10:48 AM

The original plan was to have gate valves on the drains from the tank to the sump. This way I could stop water from leaving the tank and if necessary control the drain flow. Not sure why this is a bad idea. The only reason they'd ever be closed would be an emergency situation. I'll install them open and leave them that way.

From sump to pump and pump to return I planned on using true union ball valves so I could remove the pump if necessary (cleaning, replacement, etc.). I don't plan on using them to restrict the flow, but to disconnect the pump if necessary. This should also keep water from draining out of the tank and sump while servicing/replacing the pump.

I'll definitely use the mouse pad for noise and flexible hose to connect the sump to the pump. I already have a 3/4" hose barb bulkhead for the sump. I'll just need to get some kind of adapter for the pump intake. Is this even necessary or would clamping the hose onto the pump or a peice of PVC attached to the pump do the trick.

Vinny Kreyling · #15 01/04/2008, 11:35 AM

There is no reson to have valves on the returns.
I have never seen it done, and you can bet that when needed the valve will be somehow usless. Murphey's Law you know!

Monkeyfish · #16 01/04/2008, 02:05 PM

I'll try to attach a diagram of what I originally intended to do. The tank is an AGA 180g tank and the sump is an AGA 75g tank.

Blue square = gate valve
Red square = true union ball valve
The blue line is the return.

Sump sections, from left to right - Protein skimmer, refugium, bubble trap, then return section. After reading your feedback I've decided to used a barbed fit bulkhead for the line from sump to return pump.

Everyone seems to be saying no to the gate valves - so I may ditch those?

How big should the return section be for the external pump?

qy7400 · #17 01/04/2008, 02:30 PM

Looks good to me but like everyone else ditch the gate valves on the drains, only a source for problems.

8 to 12 inch should be plenty for the return area

billsreef · #18 01/04/2008, 03:21 PM

The problem with valves installed on the drains is that you will forget to open them one time and will discover this by the water overflowing the top of the tank

It's a human thing, and the less things left for such human error the better. Consider how many of us think it's a bad idea, and that we're all long term veterans of the hobby....and two of us do this professionally

DEXTER SOLIS · #19 01/04/2008, 10:35 PM

incase of an emergency....... why not a check valve?

shyland83 · #20 01/05/2008, 12:57 PM

a check valve isn't going to do anything on a drain, as water can't flow up anyway. I try to avoid relying on check valves if at all possible anyway.

If you have an overflow box, not a whole lot of water can come out of the drain once you turn off your return pump. I'm not exactly sure what type of emergency you are preparing for.

DEXTER SOLIS · #21 01/05/2008, 03:49 PM

I was more or less thinking that when he mentioned "emergency" = power outage, so placing a check valve after the return pump will resolve the situation of back flow.

I do agree of CV's failing as well

Editour2 · #22 01/05/2008, 08:39 PM

I have a Savko union ball valve on my drain line as well. My tank is a converted Tenecor Simplicity Plus system, (essentially the back 4" of the tank was a wet/dry system and is now a giant overflow with approximately 14 gallons of water). I installed the valve since I have a small sump, (18 gallon converted amiracle wet dry), in the stand and I can shut the drain valve, shut the return valve and pull the sump, skimmer etc out for work/cleaning/repair etc. I didn't think it was a bad idea and have used this valve already. Also if I have to pull the durso pipe out I didn't want to overflow my sump with that additional 14 gallons. I can understand your thinking if you have the normal in tank overflow which probably only holds a few gallons of water or if you were using a decent sized sump. Just my situation.

fio1022 · #23 01/05/2008, 08:52 PM

Ideally your sump should be designed to handle the additional volume when pumps are off and then some.I guess every situation is different but if your in the planning stage,I'd go the safe route.Don't forget Murphy's Law...

DgenR8 · #24 01/06/2008, 07:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by fio1022
Ideally your sump should be designed to handle the additional volume when pumps are off and then some.

Actually, that goes beyond "ideally" Setting up a system with your sump volume running so high that there's no room for backflow would be a big mistake. Sooner or later, that pump will be shut down, and the sump HAS to be able to handle the backflow.

Monkeyfish · #25 01/07/2008, 11:11 AM

The sump is being designed to handle back-flow when the pump is off and then some. The unions are for ease of removal/cleaning/replacement of the pump. I'm not installing check valves as I've been told they aren't all that reliable. I thought it would be a good idea to be able to manually stop water draining from the tank, but since the sump can handle the added volume I guess there's not much need for the gate valves.

Anybody need a couple of 1" gate valves?