Seios can't be run off a controller??

[jdg]

Originally posted by edsreef

On another note:
BINGO!! I just got an e-mail from someone who MAY have inside information on the Seio controller. What he suggested (and he made it sound like speculation) was that the controllers will "most likely slow the pump down rather than shut it off completely!" This, I feel, is the answer! I'm not naming names so please don't ask - I don't want to quote someone on speculation and have it be made out to be the facts.

I've seen this 'speculative' solution before as well ... not sure how they're going to get the pump to slow down though, isn't it either ON or OFF? I didn't think there was a speed control on these things. VDC?

[edsreef]

It's definately possible. Like I've mentioned before, it's basically them same thing done with large AC motors using VFD's or "Variable Frequency Drives". If the controller worked this way it could probably operate all AC pumps the same way, depending on thier power ratings and RPM's, as if they were DC motors. Very cool stuff!

[bement14]

Originally posted by jdg
I heard the same thing; though, unfortunately, the only place I've seen it is in their own marketing materials

I heard a guy saying the other day though. I have never seen it on there marketing materials.

[aquaman222]

Don't know where you got a bucket full of broken maxi jets, but do a search. As a matter of fact, do a poll. I'll bet you 90 % of the people will pick maxi's for reliability and junk any product from Taam. Man I have worked with more brands of pumps and I have seen it all day in and day out. I did maintenance for four years day in and day out and probably replaced 4 maxi jets out of over 200 in service. How many rios did I replace? Not sure, but it was 100% of them. At least 25.

[jdg]

I don't think his are broken, I just think he switched

[gabe3d]

Originally posted by aquaman222
Don't know where you got a bucket full of broken maxi jets, but do a search. As a matter of fact, do a poll. I'll bet you 90 % of the people will pick maxi's for reliability and junk any product from Taam. Man I have worked with more brands of pumps and I have seen it all day in and day out. I did maintenance for four years day in and day out and probably replaced 4 maxi jets out of over 200 in service. How many rios did I replace? Not sure, but it was 100% of them. At least 25.

Like edsreef said the pump themselves have changed and they happen to be a lot more reliable then their previous models IME (anything from the HF and newer). I've used three Rio HF for almost 2 years for 24 hours a day without any failures. I've also used the old Rio's as well and as you've stated they tend to break down quite frequently and early. They left you with a sour taste in your mouth but it's not a reason why you should assume their newer products are the same.

Gabe

[ich_meistr]

Getting back on the main topic of why one can't run the SEIO's on a wavemaker ?? I don't think that the person who replied from Tamm knew what he / she was talking about when they stated that running the SEIO off of a wavemaker will weaken the permanent magnet. I guess they need to find a dictionary and look up the meaning of the word permanent. As a matter of fact, all powerheads use permanent magnets. So if this was the case, all powerheads running via a wavemaker should die in a relatively short amount of time. In my opinion, it is a simple matter of the impeller wearing out. If anyone has seen the impeller assembly of the Aquaclear 802, they will notice that the impeller sits loosely in regards to the magnet. There is a little bump on the end of magnet which is suppose to catch the impeller when it starts to spin. If this does not happen, we hear the clatter. This wears out the plastic impeller. When I ran into this, I just used to order the entire magnet / impeller assembly. But then it dawned on me why throw away a perfectly good magnet for nothing. So I ended up buying just the impellers from Hagen.

So I guess the bottom line is that the only thing that will be affected by running the SEIO from a wavemaker is that the plastic impeller will wear out sooner versus if the pump was run continuously. To get around this, they are coming out with their own wavemaker which will does turn the power off but rather lower the voltage just to the point where the impeller keeps turning but only very slowly. Then the power is gradually increased, perhaps over 5 - 10 secs, so that the impeller spins up to normal speed.

No real rocket science. No magnets being demagnetized or spinning in the wrong direction. IMO

[manderx]

i wouldn't be so quick to dismiss their reasons. while it does sound unlikely (ie: why don't other powerheads demagnetize) it's entirely possible. 'permanent' isn't an absolute when talking about magnets, it's just to distinguish from temporary magnets like electromagnets. things can be magnetized, and demagnetized. heat and strong magnetic fields can do this. possibly the startup uses a stronger magnetic field than normal powerheads we're used to. i do vaguely remember reading threads about cases where impeller magnets have demagnetized over time.


the 'little plastic bump' is there to give the impeller some freedom in spinning so it can pick a direction without the resistance from the impeller blades easier and get started with fewer convulsions. the chatter is when it can't decide what direction to go in, so it slaps back and forth.

so, how would lowering the voltage slow the pump down? i'm not saying it doesn't, but i don't think that would work with an AC induction motor. sure, lowering the voltage would weaken the electromagnets which would then exert less force on the impeller. but the impeller has to advance from position to position to match the frequency of the changing fields. with a weaker field, it might not make it to the next position in time and it might actually change direction. seems to me, it'd have to be all in the frequency.

[edsreef]

Hate to quote myself, but:

It's definately possible. Like I've mentioned before, it's basically them same thing done with large AC motors using VFD's or "Variable Frequency Drives". If the controller worked this way it could probably operate all AC pumps the same way, depending on thier power ratings and RPM's, as if they were DC motors. Very cool stuff!

The way most VFD's work, in a nutshell, is to take the incoming AC and switch it to DC, vary the frequency, and send a modified DC signal (that is very much like AC) to the motor.

[MarkM3]

edsreef- You are correct, they do have ceramic bearings, thus they are free from the issue that plagued the rio powerheads.

As far as the "Digital Aquatics" soft start feature, the Seio's still chatter (just got my 1500's in the mail 2 days ago and have them hooked to the controller.)

As far a slowing the motor- AC motors cant be slowed by reducing the voltage. period. Check your physics book if you don't believe me. (DC is a different story.) edsreef is correct- the only way to slow a Seio would be to change the frequency.

[edsreef]

MarkM3:
I'm beginning to believe that perhaps Seio is right in that we should not run the pumps off other controllers that completely stop then re-start the motors - even if it's a "soft-start". If indeed, their new controllers only slow-down and speed-up the Seios they could last for (dare I say it) many, many years! I have a RedSea Wavemaster that has "soft-start" and a Chauvet timer (without SS), but I may just wait until the Seio controllers come out. It may be a case where the pumps outlast the controllers or if the controllers are well-made (unlike RedSea Wavemaster) both the pumps and controllers could give us years of trouble-free operation! Wow, just the thought!

[edsreef]

I've thought about this a bit more.... The new Seio controllers could still completely stop and re-start the pumps again and not cause any wear to the magnets and impeller shafts - same principle as before - by controlling the frequency; only instead of slowing the motor they could stop it and and then "ramp" up the speed gradually upon re-starting it. I'd be willing to bet that one of these two ways will be how their new controller will work.
Has anyone heard whether these controllers will operate more than one pump each??

[Timbo]

this thread is funny. As far as I can tell, no one has heard anything legitimate about the seio controllers other than that "they are working on them." We don't know whether they will control speed, turn them on or off, or anything! I think its great that so many people are interested but this is some serious speculation here []

I'm just throwing this out there, and don't take this too personally, but what if Rio is just pulling our leg and they're just saying a controller will come out to keep us buying the seios? If it were easy and economical to make a speed controller for two pole AC induction motors (it is absolutely not), people would have done it years ago for any of the powerheads on the market.

Just my $0.02

[edsreef]

We don't know whether they will control speed, turn them on or off, or anything! I think its great that so many people are interested but this is some serious speculation here

You're right! If you've read the thread you'll notice that I have dug for the facts but they're just not available yet; hence the speculation ....so, for those interested, including myself, we've kicked around ideas and educated guesses about how these controllers MAY work.

If it were easy and economical to make a speed controller for two pole AC induction motors (it is absolutely not), people would have done it years ago for any of the powerheads on the market.

Not saying it would be "easy" or "economical", if so, I haven't seen it made so YET - but isn't technology constantly evolving?
Here are a couple of links you may find interesting:
120V VFD's
Single phase 120V speed control
120V Single phase speed control
Glad you found this funny!

[DrBDC]

Has anyone tried them on a outlet controlled by a simple dimmer switch just to see?

[edsreef]

Yes. I've tried running them off a fully variable fan speed control (like a dimmer) before - didn't work. The motors would only kick on when you turned the control to about 80% and then it was full speed up through 100%. At lower than 80%(+-) the motor would just sit and shutter.

[Krasavetz]

I can verify that it is not a good idea to run the seios on a wave maker. I have the Redsea Wavemaster Pro, and tried it with 2 seios. Both ran for approximately 1 month before the little plastic asembly inside the impeller wore out and the impeller would no longer run up to full speed. Whatever device they have inside to make the impeller rotate the correct direction jambs and the impeler no longer floats freely on the magnet. I installed one pump which ran fine for 1 month, and then would no longer pump. I installed the second pump, while waiting for a new impeller, and it again ran for a month before doing exactly the same thing. The LFS where I got them then told me not to run them on a wavemaker. I am lucky though, they are changing out the impellers under warrenty. It is just taking a long time. I have been told that replacement parts are in very limited supply. I have been waiting since the begining of December for the first impeller and it still isn't here.

[mhltcob]

i have never seen so many people excited about a rio product. the hf's and seio's that i have used dropped off like flies just like their older products. i just dont understand why there is so much hype. they do not hold up longterm in reef systems. Pay double for the tunze and have a pump that is way more powerful and has a much better impellar assembly and is not going to be a shock hazard. i mean come on, i was pointing an 1100 at debris 2 feet away and it wasnt even moving. these pumps are a joke.

[mhltcob]

however, i wish there was a reliable pump that had a small enough footprint, wide flow pattern, and was not too powerful for a 20-50 gallon tank. unfortunatily there is not.

[brian3]

I know you definitely can't slow down an AC motor by lowering the voltage, you must adjust the frequency. That is what determines it's speed. I worked on both AC and DC drives used in mfg. process lines so that is my experience. I don't think the Seio cares what direction it turns either and still works correctly just like any other standard powerhead as the impellers are semetrical.

[badpacket]

Man, I'm really disappointed in the level of posting seen on RC lately. Everyone is an expert now, not only on reefs but on electric motor engineering....
1. The poster probably talked to the Pres. of TAAM, as he seems to answer most technical questions. Doubt it if you want, but unless you are an engineer I wouldn't jump to conclusions and look like an smart aleck telling others to look in a dictionary.

2. Rapid, repetitive start/stop of an electric motor is well known to be cause for early failure, unless the directional control is non-physical, ie soft-start, pulse-width, AC-DC conditioning. What is interesting is how Maxi-Jet's are able to cope with this. It will be explored later this summer.

3. Just being in IT doesn't mean squat as far as actual Engineering training and experience. If you want to make claims, thats fine. But as TAAM circa 2005 is not quite the same as it was several years ago, and having talked to the President, I'm pretty confident that listening to them just might be worth something. They sure seemed to go over the top in supplying a multitude of attachement options, which hits their BOM and ultimately profit. While I would like to see them take public feedback on this issue and offer maybe fewer but better options , it sure seems like an extra effort that should be factored in before insinuating they are incompetent.
I think the new Rio/TAAM is going to be a far different beast than the old.

Originally posted by ich_meistr
Getting back on the main topic of why one can't run the SEIO's on a wavemaker ?? I don't think that the person who replied from Tamm knew what he / she was talking about when they stated that running the SEIO off of a wavemaker will weaken the permanent magnet. I guess they need to find a dictionary and look up the meaning of the word permanent. As a matter of fact, all powerheads use permanent magnets. So if this was the case, all powerheads running via a wavemaker should die in a relatively short amount of time. In my opinion, it is a simple matter of the impeller wearing out. If anyone has seen the impeller assembly of the Aquaclear 802, they will notice that the impeller sits loosely in regards to the magnet. There is a little bump on the end of magnet which is suppose to catch the impeller when it starts to spin. If this does not happen, we hear the clatter. This wears out the plastic impeller. When I ran into this, I just used to order the entire magnet / impeller assembly. But then it dawned on me why throw away a perfectly good magnet for nothing. So I ended up buying just the impellers from Hagen.

So I guess the bottom line is that the only thing that will be affected by running the SEIO from a wavemaker is that the plastic impeller will wear out sooner versus if the pump was run continuously. To get around this, they are coming out with their own wavemaker which will does turn the power off but rather lower the voltage just to the point where the impeller keeps turning but only very slowly. Then the power is gradually increased, perhaps over 5 - 10 secs, so that the impeller spins up to normal speed.

No real rocket science. No magnets being demagnetized or spinning in the wrong direction. IMO

[edsreef]

..but he said "IMO" so that makes it alright. Right?

I have high hopes for Taam and these new controllers too - just wish they'd start selling them. I'm so impressed with my new Seio 1500's that the ability to control them made me take another look at the Tunze. IF I could get my hands on them, it'd cost me $647.62 to have a controlled dual-pump system with similar flow as the Seio 1500's. Guess I'll just have to wait.

[ich_meistr]

Badpacket, you offer no input of your own expect to make fun of people on this thread trying to state their opinions using the knowledge they have. If you are 'disappointed' by everyone's response, kindly raise it to the next level by stating explicitly why others are incorrect in their thinking. Unfortunately, all you have said is that no one knows what they are talking about and that and simply stated that turning an electric motor on and off will be the cause of early failure. Edsreef took the liberty of trying to get a simple answer as to why we could not run the SEIO's on a wavemaker and the basic answer was that it would cause the magnet to weaken. If so, then why does this not happen to other powerheads since all employ the same physics / principal of electro-magnetism.

I never said that I was an expert nor did I say that I was an IT person thus my opinion is worth it's weight in gold. You do not know me or my background nor what I have studied. So, please do not make fun of me, or for that matter others on this thread unless you have something more concrete to offer.

Thx.

[Steel_Phoenix]

I wonder if the impact of the chattering could demagnetize the impeller? I know if you point a nail north and hit it with a hammer it will magnetize. I'm sure this also works in reverse.

I heard in another thread that the issue holding back the SEIO controller is one of longevity. I won't be suprised if the pumps do outlast the controller. There were also plans to put the controller directly into the pumps as an alternative to the seperate controller.

[brentp]

Originally posted by ich_meistr
I don't think that the person who replied from Tamm knew what he / she was talking about when they stated that running the SEIO off of a wavemaker will weaken the permanent magnet. I guess they need to find a dictionary and look up the meaning of the word permanent. As a matter of fact, all powerheads use permanent magnets.

No real rocket science. No magnets being demagnetized or spinning in the wrong direction. IMO

Originally posted by ich_meistr
Not to bash anyone but I was very skeptical of Mandrex's response.

Wow, two knowledgeable people say how things work and you say they don't know what they are talking about. They were not giving opinions, they were saying what actually occurs.

Permanent Magnets are a class of materials that retain their magnetic properties after the applied field has been removed. This does not mean forever, it means they do not require electricity to maintain their magnetic field. There are a number of permanent magnet materials, and in each group, there are many grades of materials. Depending on the material, the magnets will retain their magnetic properties depending on the conditions of their use. They do not stay magnetized for ever and can be demagnetized.