o happy day @ lfs! - Page 3

saltchuck · #51 08/31/2003, 12:00 PM

But again, how can you prove that a fish from the Philippines is cyanide caught without a stateside test, or one in the Philippines for that matter? To preach an outright ban on Philippine fish when there fish coming into North America that are net caught is irresponsible! Start preaching for change instead.

naesco · #52 08/31/2003, 12:22 PM

Saltchuk So what are you? A wholesaler, online store operator or a LFS. Do you import net caught fish?
I know that industry wants the trade in cheap cyanide caught fish to continue but it will be stopped.

saltchuck · #53 08/31/2003, 12:52 PM

Concerned hobbyist that has done some "research" on this issue. At the same time I question why you continue to preach shutting down the entire trade from the Philippines and Indonesia instead of shutting down the cyanide trade. How about reforming the industry and allowing the smaller importers and LFS that have embraced "reeform" and are dependant on those areas for fish to survive. Have you given that some thought? I'll ask you...where did your tangs come from??? What LFS? That way we can all be sure that you practice what you preach!!!

naesco · #54 08/31/2003, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by saltchuck
Concerned hobbyist that has done some "research" on this issue. At the same time I question why you continue to preach shutting down the entire trade from the Philippines and Indonesia instead of shutting down the cyanide trade. How about reforming the industry and allowing the smaller importers and LFS that have embraced "reeform" and are dependant on those areas for fish to survive. Have you given that some thought? I'll ask you...where did your tangs come from??? What LFS? That way we can all be sure that you practice what you preach!!!

You are a pretty aggressive young man for five (5) posts. Who are you Saltchuck?
So let me ask you a question?
Did you donate to the RC fund to buy netting for the fisherman in the Philippines?

Skipper · #55 08/31/2003, 04:31 PM

...watching.

saltchuck · #56 08/31/2003, 10:33 PM

Wow, Naesco this is fun...I'll answer your question and then you can answer mine.

1. Who am I?
- Again, I'm a concerned hobbyist.

2. Did I donate?
- no, but my tank is full of aquacultured product.

How about your tank??? Where did your tangs come from? Maybe the Philippines??? How about Indonesia? Your turn.

lllosingit · #57 08/31/2003, 11:00 PM

OK kids fight nicely

I would support any LFS that would at least make an attemp at making sure the animals they sell go to a good home.
I know several dog breeders and I don't care how much money you have they will not let you buy a dog from them until they are sure you will care for it.
Why should fish be any different?
The way I look at it if they care enough to make sure your going to properly care for the animal then I would assume that they have also cared enough to give that animal the best care possible while they had it.
That is the place I want to shop!

naesco · #58 08/31/2003, 11:51 PM

Saltchuk or whoever you are, you have 8 posts and you know I have tangs? Why don't you go back to RDO.
I am not biting! Sorry

DgenR8 · #59 09/01/2003, 08:36 AM

Excellent choice Naesco!

Chuck, did you read the UA here before agreeing to it? I feel that you are only here to look for trouble, please prove me wrong.
[flamealert]

Dz99ls · #60 09/01/2003, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by gophia
What the hell! Are you serious. Who in the world is going to fill out info about their setup and their expertise to buy a fish.

Do you consider a 5.5 gallon acceptable for a reef keeping? Most of you guy/gals will say NO. But there are thousand of reefer who are also keeping nanos.

I undersatnd this LFS is trying to protect their livestock from instant or chornic death from an amature, but I can't see how one person can judge if his or her tank is worthy enough for their livestock.

I don't forsee that LFS lasting long.

i agree 100% that is rediculous no way they will last

DgenR8 · #61 09/01/2003, 08:22 PM

As I said earlier, a lot of people will appreciate their approach, some will chose to spend their money elsewhere.
I commend the effort to save animals from being mistreated, even unwittingly. You have the option of spending your money where ever you want to.

lllosingit · #62 09/01/2003, 09:07 PM

I can tell you one more great reason they will stay in business it's called customer service.
I'm sure if they ask you questions they'll probably be more than willing to answer yours.
I see so many people start this hobby on the wrong foot because they got bad advice from the LFS and they gave up because they lost so much money that they can't see loosing even more.
Or can't stand watching another fish suffer and die.

If the LFS gets them started the correct way and helps them when they need it. They end up with a beautiful aquarium that they are proud of and can't wait for family and friends to come over so they can show them, They will have a customer for the life of the store.
I have three LFS near me and I will only buy from one because she really cares about what happens to the animals when they leave the store, The others don't even take care of the fish they have so why would they care what I do with them?

saltchuck · #63 09/01/2003, 10:12 PM

Alright...alright, I'll leave Naesco's tank alone. I am not looking for trouble, just trying to get an answer about the desire to shut down the trade from the Philippines and Indonesia. I have answered questions posed to me, but for some reason, my questions have gone unanswered. Again, I am not looking for trouble. When someone gets up on a soapbox and preaches an outright ban that will have devastating effects on the trade, I feel, in my opinion, that questions should be asked. I guess that is just my nature to question things that don't seem quite right to me. This is one issue that fits the bill.

I have asked how one can be sure that a dead fish from either origin has been caught with cyanide? Fish die for all sorts of reasons, one being the condition of the hobbyist's tank. Every fish death cannot be blamed squarely on cyanide as we are being told. Naesco has not answered this question.

I have also asked why the ban when reform in this hobby is already happening. Why not support those, Reefsource, that are doing the right thing supporting the net caught movement? The product is available. This support would have a much better impact on this hobby than banning two origins of fish.

Again, I will stress that I am not loking for trouble. I can sit on my hands and ignore the preachings of an individual who would like to, for all intents and purposes, shut down the marine hobby. I feel when one proposes an ideology such as Naesco, he should expect to have to answer some questions and defend his position. If this questioning is too extreme, then this is a sad sad world in which we live.

DgenR8 · #64 09/03/2003, 05:48 PM

Chuck,
It's not the questions you ask that I see as a problem, Some of your questions are very relevant. It's the manner in which you ask them that made my hair stand on end. I'm not in complete agreement with Naesco, I wonder about some of the same things you asked, but the way you asked came across as inflammatory.
I don't know if you are a member here under a different name, but you have certainly left me with the uneasy feeling that you have had run ins of some sort with Naesco under another name somewhere, and I was expecting things to escalate.
You have answered questions posed to you selectively, why does it surprise you that Naesco did the same?
As far as fish deaths, there are many causes, I'm sure cyanide is one, and I'm sure it's frequently the cause, I do not accept that every fish from Indonesia that turns up dead is a victim of cyanide poisoning, especially one that lived in a hobbyist's tank for a number of of months.
Let's keep it friendly, and within the guidelines of trying to learn, so we can all derive a benefit from the discussion.

flameangeljs · #65 09/08/2003, 09:38 PM

ichthyman,
I like your attitude and think if more of us LFS had yours and my attitudes, maybe we might not hear so many "evil LFS" remarks on these forums.
I dont "make" customers fill out forms, they WANT me to keep files on their tanks !!! These files mean if they want any given animal, I know if it will or wont work in their tanks. I know when it is time to change their light bulbs etc etc etc also. A personal touch that most people really like. And yes, I have refused to sell such and such an animal many times, but try to explain why also.
Most listen and appreciate but a few do get angry. Did ask a few to leave the store also, when they said I HAD to sell them a certain animal-lol !! I dont have to kill any animals just to make some fool happy for a day !!!!

naesco · #66 09/08/2003, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by flameangeljs
ichthyman,
I like your attitude and think if more of us LFS had yours and my attitudes, maybe we might not hear so many "evil LFS" remarks on these forums.
I dont "make" customers fill out forms, they WANT me to keep files on their tanks !!! These files mean if they want any given animal, I know if it will or wont work in their tanks. I know when it is time to change their light bulbs etc etc etc also. A personal touch that most people really like. And yes, I have refused to sell such and such an animal many times, but try to explain why also.
Most listen and appreciate but a few do get angry. Did ask a few to leave the store also, when they said I HAD to sell them a certain animal-lol !! I dont have to kill any animals just to make some fool happy for a day !!!!

You guys don't have to be told that a good LFS is worth their weight in gold. Any negative comments made exclude those whose business interests include keeping customers happy.

REEForm: Never buy a fish from the Philippines or Indonesia where the use of cyanide is rampant.

sfshea · #67 10/07/2003, 04:53 PM

But what's the real point of the policy?? Is it to protect the animal? Is it to protect the seller from having to take back livestock that didn't survive? Is it to protect the purchaser from himself? Or is it simply an attempt to make sure that the purchaser is making an educated purchase, and that the purchase has a reasonable chance of survival? If so, how is that any different than what we personally advocate for our own tanks???

MarkS · #68 10/07/2003, 06:14 PM

This kind of thing bothers me.

I'm setting up a 10 gallon nano reef. I plan on three fish total, one Royal Gramma (already have this) and two false percula clown fish.

The majority of the corals will be SPS. I also plan on adding one 1" - 2" Maxima clam.

While the tank is only 10 gallons, it has a 9 gallon sump with 7 gallons of water, a Remora with a Mag 5 and uses an Iwaki 30RLT for return. Needless to say, the flow through the main tank is strong. The tank is drilled, BTW. It has a 3/4" Stockman standpipe with an internal overflow and a 3/4" return.

A three gallon water change is done once or twice a month. I dose B-Ionic for calcium and use no other additives.

Lighting is provided by one 175 watt MH. Currently, the bulb is a 4000K bulb that came with the retro kit. I plan on upgrading to a 20,000K XM bulb within the month. The light is on for 13 hours per day.

The water temp stays about 75 degrees, but I do not use a heater. I plan on taking the temp up to 80 degrees.

I have 10 pounds of live rock and 1" - 2" of sand. The tank has cycled and has been set up since May.

....

So, would all of that be taken into consideration, or would I be stopped from buying a fish or coral or clam because the tank is only a 10 gallon? Does it help to know that I have more than 5 years experience?

Mark

flameangeljs · #69 10/07/2003, 07:42 PM

MarkS,
In reply to all you described about yourself and your tank-
yes, I think you would be a good customer,
and one I would want to work with.
Your animals will have a good home !!

Before I sell an animal to someone,
I discreetly or obviously (depending on the person ),
find out all you have said above.

The object ???
To have the animal have a good home-
the customer to have a successful tank,
that he/she can enjoy for years-
to save as much money/time/ etc for the customer,
in the maintenance of said tank etc.
All in all, this seems to work the best for me/the animals,
and the customers.
Obviously,
this style of doing business is only possible ,
when it is a small shop-
the owner is willing to go that extra mile
AND with hobbyists who CARE !!!!!!

DgenR8 · #70 10/07/2003, 07:54 PM

Obviously, some fish should not be sold to someone with a 10 gallon tank, but it's just as obvious that you have taken the time to research what you want to put in that tank.
I would hope that anyone wanting to buy a Tang for a ten gallon tank would be denied that fish, no matter how well that 10 was set up.
I do still think there is a need for LFS to know what they are selling to who, and refuse a sale if it's something that should not be sold for what ever incompatibility issues exist.

MarkS · #71 10/07/2003, 11:59 PM

I agree.

However, some people think that any fish in a ten gallon is extreme, not to mention SPS and a clam! I really have done my research on this and have been for YEARS.

To tell the truth, I agree with the LFS. However, what if they refused to sell me what I needed or wanted because of the size of my tank?

I think it would be a good thing if I couldn't just go to the next fish store or buy it online. Unfortunately, that store will be shut down. It is just simply bad business to refuse a sell, regardless of the ethics involved. They will have to raise prices to compensate and then their customer base drops further due to the high prices. I've seen it happen. The best LFS in San Antonio and South Texas, Aquarium Sales & Service, shut down last year. I went there several times. However, their prices were often too high for me to afford. I ended up buying online or at a less reputable LFS. They quarentined all of their live stock for two weeks and asked lots of questions before selling a fish. They had knowledgable staff and owners. They were in business for more than 20 years, but could not afford to go on any longer and the San Antonio area was hurt worse by their closing. Now everyone only has the "bad" LFS' to turn to. The best one in the area is between San Antonio and Austin and there are great ones in Austin. I am not going to drive that far for anything. This means I'll be buying online. Others will be turning to PetCo and PetsMart!

flameangeljs · #72 10/08/2003, 05:32 AM

markS,

Quote:

They were in business for more than 20 years, but could not afford to go on any longer and the San Antonio area was hurt worse by their closing. Now everyone only has the "bad" LFS' to turn to.

And this is just what Larry was saying in all his messages here.
If the hobbyists do not support the good LFS,
then they will only have the bad ones left !!!!
Or on line places that one needs Blind faith to deal with.

You , the hobbyists, are the ones who support and keep in business, either the good LFS or the bad LFS.
It takes more money to run a good LFS versus the bad one.
Our overhead is simply higher, as any of you who really take care of your tanks, already know.
Cut corners on your system and it will not run as well.

Also, for many of us LFS's, the dry good sales are what keeps us going. Livestock has such a high overhead to keep properly, that most of us could NOT stay in business for long, if that is all we sold !!!!!

jay24k · #73 10/11/2003, 08:19 AM

I find it funny how people complain about the LFS for giving people 10 tangs for their 60 gallong tank without telling them no but when one does tell them no, people complain. Either support the LFS or not. Personally, if they turned me down, I'd send in my wife, and write down that we have a 800 gallon tank

even tho I have only a 45 heh.

fishreefoctobreed · #74 10/13/2003, 11:33 PM

since hearing all this about this store i am seriously wanting to go check it out and try to support such a store (if i pass! hehe) i travel through fl and would love to make it a stop. i am gld to see that there are some businesses that are looking out for the good of the industry! i have worked at a store and hated selling to those uncaring customers that had to "refill" their tanks every 2 weeks at most! and although i wasnt allowed not to sell i would ignore those customers or tell them that it wouldnt be ggod for them and tell them some horror story to disuade them. i am proud of these stores and will support them if i can! another note is that i am starting my own venture of aquaculturing my own fish and corals. partly to make it a more popular means of this business and not so much for my own profit! i have seen the warnings that it is not very profitable and so am doing it almost solely on a positive change for the industry! because together we can make a diffeence! those sell anything bussinesses are never in bussiness for long anyways. i have seen many go under and its never the ones who truly care. and i think that this is due to the many experienced customers that realize what an asset they are and all the support they get for doing things the way they do.
we will omeday have a close to perfect industry because of all the force that is being put in that dirrection by all of you intelligent reefers! we should not recognize these stores as selling things at higher prices but at the price they should be sold at and the others sores as selling "stolen goods at lower prices" most wouldnt buy stolen good, so why would you buy from irresponsible stores that take things fro the ocean without proper care?? its unethical and is headed for dissaster because we WILL run out of supply!!! and then how much will you pay for your stuff!!!

also if you had a pet in your tank and were going to sell it would you just give it to the first person that asked? or would you check on what they had? something to think about!

Congrats all the responsible stores you deliver a positive influence to the industry!

and p.s. just because you dont have a trillion posts doesnt mean you are lacking in experience!

GreshamH · #75 10/14/2003, 07:48 PM

Quote:

Hopefully soon, it will be the law that an LFS or online store must post/display the country of origin of the fish, as sci-guy has posted so that reefers can avoid cyanide caught ones.

Unfortunatly, our current President is taking ALL the teeth away from ANY legistalation that might happen for marine aquarium industry reform and its likes. Had Gore won, oops, I mean, *IF* Gore actually got into office, we'd have seen a dramatic change in our hobby/trade.

PLUS- knowing country of origin does NOTHING for you to be able to know if it's collected with cyanide or not. I sell fish from both Indo and PI and I know they're clean (almost all the divers our exporters use were trained by my boss or some one he trained). Poor handling (ie. proper decompression) is just as bad for a fish as cyanide and kills just as many NO MATTER WHAT COUNTRY OF ORIGIN. Shutting down a country because of bad apples is just wrong, why punish the good? Think they'll pick up farming after they are no longer allowed to collect for our trade? Nope, they'll turn to even worse practices for the collection of food fish (no land for farms).