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  #1  
Old 01/11/2008, 02:11 AM
roadracn roadracn is offline
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Front Range Aquatics, Alex, and the Hawaii Order debacle

I know this will be a long read, but I feel it’s worth it…


Most of the people on Reef Central can probably be compared to one of the fish in our tanks. Some are happy just to see the lights come on in the morning, some are happy to see them go out at night, some are really picky, and all of us are busy bodies. I went in on the first Hawaii order about 18 months ago, and it was a complete pain in the butt. It took forever to get everything in order and the guy that did It, I was grateful for doing the order. Everybody was changing things the order kept getting pushed back, but it was going to be worth it because I was going to get some fish that I had never seen before, and second get fish that I would never buy at a local fish shop even if I did happen to find them. I was new at this hobby (and heck even in the last week I feel like a newbie again) and didn’t know what to expect. I looked at each fish off of the price list that I was given, and selected a few fish that I really really wanted. I stayed away from the overly exotic fish that were for more advanced guys, but at last I did finally place my order. When the order came, for the people that remember it, the flight didn’t go the way it was supposed to, and our fish sat in Salt Lake for a lot of extra time, and probably contributed to the demise of some of our new additions to the tank. When it came, not all of the fish that I ordered were on the shipment, and I ended up buying stuff that I didn’t even order because people backed out at the last minute. All of this in the hotel out by the airport in the early stages of a snow storm. After thinking this all through I even wonder what I was thinking about doing a group order again…

I also reflected on the people that were out there. We were all so into our tanks, little side jokes about how much we spent, and how we had hidden it from our spouses, and in basic denial of our addiction of the perfect tank with the perfect fish and a great story of how we had a diver get it for us and that’s why it looked so great! I would totally do another group order. My first contact with Alex was at the end of October, and I basically asked if he would be interested in doing another group buy. He was ecstatic, and really wanted to do have another group sale, as our orders are pretty large, and we are usually a happy customer. (I have almost all of the emails that I sent to Alex regarding this matter) I also had a couple ideas on how to make it easier on Alex, and also be willing to take the burden of putting the order together. In the beginning it was great, Alex was loving our order, and was really quick to answer his phone, emails, and PM’s off of here The original post for the Hawaii Order was on the day after Thanksgiving, and our interest in the order grew rapidly.…until he got a call from Front Range Aquatics. Suddenly our perfect plan for our group buy through Alex had hit a snag. Suddenly there was a problem with pricing because he sent the wrong price list, suddenly there was a problem with shipping, and this was after several emails and phone calls quit being returned. Alex now wanted to run the order through a store that was “15 minutes north of Denver” In a phone call with Alex it was stated that a LFS (no one specific at this time) “had thrown a fit” that he was selling to us direct, and that we were costing him Business on his grand opening. Also that the order needed to be run through this other shop…after informing Alex that front range aquatics grand opening wasn’t being affected and that Denver wasn’t even his market, he said he would send over a new price list that reflected our real group buy pricing. We as a group had no issues with that.

Several days went buy and several emails and phone calls went unreturned. I would later find out that there was no additional list, and that the LFS store was basically trying to figure out what was fair. I understood Alex tough position of being between a group buy and a regular customer. Neither of us understood what the problem was with a shop that was so far away…I did everything as Alex asked me to do, I closed the order by the time I said I would, I sent him the updated lists, and offered to do anything that I could to help him out. The new price list never came, I assume because there isn’t one. I asked several times for this updated list and never got it. I was finally told that it would be a strait 50% above the current price list that we had, and this was agreed upon by the Front Range. I asked Alex point blank if the extra $$ was for him or the shop. His only reply was “I wish I was making an extra 50% on this one”

As of 12/9 Our order was closed, and sent to Alex. It took a few more days to get total confirmation from people but Alex had our order, and it was still in line to go. He was still getting pressure form not only Front Range and now it had grown to pressure from other LFS across the US, and asked me to delete the thread with the price list off of RC ASAP. I did as asked and patiently waited for the order to get ready to ship. I asked Alex what the next step was to be and waited. Next real message that I got was on 12/17 that the weather had been bad and that he was unable to dive, order was going to be pushed until after Christmas, and would ship the week of 1/5. I told the people involved in the order and waited…

New years went buy and I sent him an email on 1/3 asking about the order, finding out if he needed money yet, and what the game plan was as we were to be getting our order on 1/5…nothing, no messages returned, no emails, no PM’s, basically ignoring us. Finally on Wednesday 1/9 I got the response that was in the last thread from Alex. Again you will notice that he is pushing us to go through Front Range. I immediately called Front Range to get some sort of answer on the issue of our order, and several calls to his main number just give us his hours of operation. What a waste, why have a telephone if your not going to answer it during your business hours. I searched further, and finally found a cell phone for him. The conversation Went something like this…
  #2  
Old 01/11/2008, 02:20 AM
oscar89 oscar89 is offline
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Sorry to hear how much B...S... you have had to endure. Group buys are great and I certainly hope this doesn't deter anyone from participating in another one.
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  #3  
Old 01/11/2008, 02:26 AM
Milhouse Milhouse is offline
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I'm shocked and a little confused by all of this. I wasn't in on the group order, but I have been to Front Range Aquatics a few times. I really like the place. But if there's one thing I've noticed about it.....there are no freakin' fish in the place. Plenty of corals, but really, no fish. He probably has about 20 tanks, with maybe a total of 20 fish in all of them. I'm serious. 20 fish, lol. A few tanks might have 3 fish in them, then others none. It's odd. He seems to lean his business more towards coral. So I'm not sure why he would do this. I'm shocked and disappointed.
  #4  
Old 01/11/2008, 02:41 AM
roadracn roadracn is offline
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part 2....

I left him a message about the whole order and was calling to find out another perspective of what I have been told this far. I couldn’t believe that the guy that was throwing a fit about our order being placed with Alex was the same guy that did the last group buy. I was really shocked that when he was a hobbyist like the rest of us it was a great deal, but once he opened a store, it was taking money away from him. I kept an open mind on the conversation but He made it very clear that he gave Alex a lesson in business that it was more important to work with his suppliers that to do a group buy. He also told Alex that he wouldn’t buy from him if he filled the Group buy. These are words from Steve, the owner or Front Ranges mouth on the phone today! He didn’t see it as an ultimatum, but rather as business. There was supposedly an agreement that Alex made Steve that he would only sell to him in Colorado, which doesn’t add up because of the emails that I sent back and forth with Alex to get him additional business in the Denver Area. I gave FRA the chance to correct this problem that was created, and he still denied having a hand in what happened, saying that it was all alexs decision and that he made it without any input from FRA. How is it made without any input from FRA when our order had no problems until Alex got a call and a business lesson from FRA??????? I gave the option today that FRA could easily contact his new supplier and order us our fish, make a little bit on it and save face over everything that has happened. FRA denied ever wanting the 50%, yet that didn’t come about until after the complaints from FRA about the group buy. I see the dilemma that FRA is in, but it is self inflicted. You stick your hand in the cookie jar and tried to make money that didn’t belong to you. You made a diver in Hawaii feel guilty about filling an order by your “business lesson” that you gave him, nice words by the way, I hope this lesson worked out well for you.

Steve, I for one will stand up and say it, I will not be entering your shop, ever, and I will be sure to let people know how you feel it necessary to run your business. There is so much more of the conversation I wish I had the time to take and type. Your warped idea of how we as a hobbyist population will spend our money will need to get corrected. Just because people do a group buy every now and then isn’t going to kill off your business. Your approach to this group buy is what will. Your actions will have not only an impact on your business, but also the way that people look at other LFS’s. I am sure that they will thank you as well. You have successfully ****ed on 20 people that had an order from a great guy in Hawaii. Your greed and need for having something in your pocket from a fish order that had nothing to do with you to begin with has had an impact on Alex’s life, Lots of people reading on RC, other LFS’s I hope your business lesson worked well for you. I am sure that Alex had a wrecked holiday season form everything that was going on, and the extra pressure form your actions.

Alex, if you got this far reading, know that I feel for you, I know the tough spot that you had to be in. I feel for you and am sorry for your accident, and your loss to diving. As a fellow diver, I know that there is a great level of peace that you feel when your down deep, in your own little world. I hope you get better soon, and I hope that this group buy didn’t cause you nearly as much grief as it caused me, but somehow I am sure you have been through the wringer also. Best wishes!
  #5  
Old 01/11/2008, 02:46 AM
roadracn roadracn is offline
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As far as the people that have ordered, I have talked with a LFS here in Denver, and told them whats up. He has our complete list, and is working on complete fulfillment, with the pricing as it was discussed. I didn't ask him if it was ok to post the shop name or not, so for right now I won't. Looking like fishes as early as next week, will keep everyone informed, pm or post any questions
  #6  
Old 01/11/2008, 03:08 AM
scouter scouter is offline
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Thanks for the detail update. I live less than a mile from Front Range Aquatics, and have already spent money there. No more business from me if anyone asks I will tell them to make the drive to Greeley. The customers service out there is 100 times better than what you get at FRA anyway. I was only buying the fish because of the prices. I wasn't going to the grand opening even if this order never existed. My wife wont let me spend the money all of those fish (and like the reply above, WHAT fish, there are no fish). When I was an electrician, I did a ton of side work, saving people the from "retail" prices of the companies I worked for. The thing is, I wasn't taking money from my companies I worked for. If I wasn't doing it for 1/2 price, it was usually things people would not have had done anyway. Since the price was good, they had things done.

Now thanks to the selfish, unnecessary acts of a Mullet wearing LFS owner, I might not be getting any fish. Go back to selling guns!
  #7  
Old 01/11/2008, 03:12 AM
bmb527 bmb527 is offline
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I guess that the countdown to his "going out of business sale" should start 1-11-08. I can't believe that someone who used to start and participate in group buys in the exact same fashion as this one was done, has resorted to being such a petty whiner, and resorting to threaten Alex to stop buying from him.
Steve,
I have met and known you for years through the club, and always thought you were a "stand up" guy. I now know differently. I am currently buying equipment and rock, and soon will be buying livestock for my new tank. You just screwed yourself out of every penny I will be spending on setting up and stocking a 150 gallon reef. We all know it is not as big as some, but, it still amounts to a couple thousand dollars. Smooth move guy!

roadracn,
I feel for you in all the B.S. that this group buy put you through. You tried to "hook people up" and you ended up getting the sharp end of the hook. But, you dealt with it with honor, more than can be said for the above mentioned, soon to be closed, (hopefully) "store owner". I think I can say THANKS from everyone for handling this deal as well as you have.
Bill
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Slavin' away on 'graves for "A whole different animal"...Frontier Airlines!
  #8  
Old 01/11/2008, 03:12 AM
tkeracer619 tkeracer619 is offline
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I was a part of the first group buy as well. I remember standing in that parking lot having a good time. I was looking forward to this one big time. I just set up my 360 gallon tank and had the opportunity to stock the tank the way I wanted with quality livestock.

Steve, you seemed like a stand up guy. How dare you control how my money is spent from 60 miles away. I cannot stand people that believe this is their world and others just live in it. If you don't care what we think of your store because rc is such a small part of your business.... Why go through so much effort to make that small chunk of your customers loose out? It is obvious you don't care in the slightest.

Shame on you for your "business lesson", you obviously haven't had enough of your own. You took money out of Alex's hands, if any lesson, he learned how rotten people can be. You might want to rent a copy of A Christmas Carol and pay close attention.
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______________________________
Colorado is sweet.
I'm always down to go to the MJ
My Turbo Honda -> Click little red house.
Friends don't let friends buy from Front Range Aquatics
  #9  
Old 01/11/2008, 03:36 AM
VikeBron VikeBron is offline
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Decided not to get into an arguement with someone who doesn't know how to tell the truth.
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Steve
"GO ROCKIES"

Last edited by VikeBron; 01/11/2008 at 04:06 AM.
  #10  
Old 01/11/2008, 03:36 AM
spstimie spstimie is offline
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well i wont be making that drive anytime soon. let us know when you close up shop so we can buy your stuff at next to nothing

i think they hired a kid that screwed me on a frag trade anyway
  #11  
Old 01/11/2008, 03:58 AM
tkeracer619 tkeracer619 is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by VikeBron
roadracn, you can lie all you want about what Alex told you and what we talked about on the phone. Your completely fabricated "business lesson" comment would have been laughable if it wasn't such a boldface lie.


I apologize to everyone who was caught up in this.

Calling him a lier while apologizing to the rest of us? Your not sorry at all......... like we were born yesterday.

Why apologize? You seem really proud of your achievments. No need to lie about it.



Quote:
Originally posted by spstimie
well i wont be making that drive anytime soon. let us know when you close up shop so we can buy your stuff at next to nothing
I got the 1st keg of tommyknocker for the parking lot, who has the second?
__________________
______________________________
Colorado is sweet.
I'm always down to go to the MJ
My Turbo Honda -> Click little red house.
Friends don't let friends buy from Front Range Aquatics
  #12  
Old 01/11/2008, 05:49 AM
bmb527 bmb527 is offline
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I'll pick up a keg of Hazed & Infused, and a bottle of SoCo!

Looks like someone stepped on his schmeckle while trying to get us to shop at his store! Oh well, there's always more shops that don't play games like this.
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Slavin' away on 'graves for "A whole different animal"...Frontier Airlines!

Last edited by bmb527; 01/11/2008 at 05:54 AM.
  #13  
Old 01/11/2008, 08:48 AM
CHARLIE AGUILAR CHARLIE AGUILAR is offline
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I have heard that the FRA is not set up that great any way, tanks sitting on concrete floors, electrical wires showing all over o well ill keep my business local at DH,AA and even make the trip to D town. I agree w/ TKE why apologize if you did nothing wrong?
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  #14  
Old 01/11/2008, 09:00 AM
hawkfish21 hawkfish21 is offline
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Good discussion everyone. Hopefully everyone can be civil or this thread will get closed in a hurry. I would like to hear something from Front Range Aquatics regarding this issue.
  #15  
Old 01/11/2008, 10:41 AM
runningstix runningstix is offline
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Wow that is messed up! So... This is where it started??

posted on rmrc

2007/12/02 16:51
vikebron

Hawaii Fish

In addition to all the corals coming for the grand opening we are scheduled to get alot of Hawaii fish.
Tangs, wrasses, butterflys and others.

Nice. Lost any of my future business

Last edited by runningstix; 01/11/2008 at 10:48 AM.
  #16  
Old 01/11/2008, 11:01 AM
aspenimages aspenimages is offline
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I think Hawkfish is right, no sense beating this dead horse. Everyone knows what to do, or should I say what NOT to do. DO NOT give FRA one penny of your hard earned money! I will have a meeting with a good friend of mine that I am almost positive will hook us up with this order. Thank you Roadracn for everything! It's amazing how some good will gestures turn into total nightmares. Let's stay in touch and get this order and future orders placed through an LFS that understands how to run a business. This really can be a win-win situation for everyone. I've said it so many times before: Opening a business does not entitle you. You have to earn and be grateful for every dollar that's spent with you. I do a lot of fish business with someone like that, and once I get his "permission", I will be singing his praises here very soon!
  #17  
Old 01/11/2008, 11:30 AM
tkeracer619 tkeracer619 is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by VikeBron
Decided not to get into an arguement with someone who doesn't know how to tell the truth.

This used to be his reply but he edited it.

I like the first one better.

He spent some time replying last night. Called Roadracin a lier. Made some remark about how he had already been told by alex 100 times that it was his fault alex crashed his car. That any other fish store would have done the same. That he owns alex's business in colorado.... ect ect. He also stated that would be his only reply. I suppose we will no longer be able to get a reply.

You call others a lier but I find it funny when your "friends" have been ratting on you for a while now. I was waiting on your reply because I have read your own words.... and they do not go along the same lines as apologizing to the rest of us. I find it amazing that you come on this board, with your ego all inflated, and call one of us a lier.

You posted your reply at 2am yet by 9:30 am its gone. Dig the hole deeper, you are sure doing a good job.
__________________
______________________________
Colorado is sweet.
I'm always down to go to the MJ
My Turbo Honda -> Click little red house.
Friends don't let friends buy from Front Range Aquatics
  #18  
Old 01/11/2008, 11:30 AM
scaast scaast is offline
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I'm staying neutral until I hear the other side. If the facts are as roadracn stated I will not shop at FRA.
  #19  
Old 01/11/2008, 11:32 AM
::PixelFish:: ::PixelFish:: is offline
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It's too bad that it's Front Range that screwed things up. I bought some corals at the store and the owner seemed like a nice guy, told me he hated fish and would only carry corals if it were up to him.

Another LFS on my **** list along with Animal Attraction, soon I'll only be shopping online. Hopefully Don's Hobbies will pick the ball and start carrying more fish and corals.
  #20  
Old 01/11/2008, 11:33 AM
tkeracer619 tkeracer619 is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by scaast
I'm staying neutral until I hear the other side. If the facts are as roadracn stated I will not shop at FRA.


Yeah, steve don't care man. Call him on the phone yourself. He isn't hiding it.
__________________
______________________________
Colorado is sweet.
I'm always down to go to the MJ
My Turbo Honda -> Click little red house.
Friends don't let friends buy from Front Range Aquatics

Last edited by tkeracer619; 01/11/2008 at 12:21 PM.
  #21  
Old 01/11/2008, 11:43 AM
miwoodar miwoodar is offline
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Roadracn, you did a LOT of hard work bringing all of this together. I am very sorry to see that it has been in vain. You coordinated a lot of horses and that is no easy task.

I don't see why everybody is bothering to point fingers and throwing stores under the bus. The wholesale/retail relationship exists all around us in ALL of the products we buy. Why should we expect it to work any differently for the reef hobby? This hobby is the only one I have ever been a part of that even considers going to the wholesaler. And for what? We buy the fish, feel like we get really great deals, then we take the losses when they die rather than the stores. If I might remind you, of the three shops I worked at (all of which were successful and long standing businesses), not a one of them were in the black on saltwater fish.

If you doubt the validity of who absorbs the fish losses...just review the thread that summarizes the results of the last order.
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...ghlight=hawaii
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Last edited by miwoodar; 01/11/2008 at 11:57 AM.
  #22  
Old 01/11/2008, 03:14 PM
icantremember icantremember is offline
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I don't agree with FRA interfering with the order. There is a mutual symbiotic relationship that retailers/wholesalers share. However, if a group of people have an interest in making a large purchase, similar to what a LFS purchases, this should be allowable and at the sole discretion of the wholesaler/diver. For FRA to put pressure on Alex stating he would not order from Alex again if the group buy was fulfilled is ridiculous. I doubt that there was any type of exclusivity agreement signed between Alex and FRA. IMHO this a hobbyist turned retailer, whom I have never met, that is being greedy for his own benefit. I don't agree with that philosophy or business practice.

If what happened is true, I personally will not step foot in FRA's and will recommend that my friends and family do the same. I have a 3 month old 300 gallon that I am stocking as a mixed reef. This business, without a doubt, will go to other LFS'/wholesalers.
  #23  
Old 01/11/2008, 03:26 PM
miwoodar miwoodar is offline
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I agree that once the order train was in motion, it should not have been blocked.
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  #24  
Old 01/11/2008, 04:11 PM
roadracn roadracn is offline
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hey guys, read all of the comments, I would like to put out there that this wasn't a thread titled "Drive the bus over Front Range" It is simply a thread about what happened when a hobbyist that turns to LFS steps in front of a bunch of people and their passion. It disappoints me most because I really did call Steve in hopes that he was sorry for what he did, the impact that he had on people not only locally, but LFS’s, suppliers, and other human beings across the world. He did not care. HE wouldn’t help with the order, wouldn’t help Alex, or the many people that I bet he once called friend on Reef Central. I thought I was his friend as well, I was with him on the last group buy, bought stuff that I didn’t order so that he didn’t have to cover it out of pocket. I called him greedy because of his actions. It shows over and over, from making a fuss about this order, to thinking that Alex could only sell to him in the huge state of Colorado. That is greed….”mine mine mine, all mine” quoted from a cartoon from my childhood. As for calling me a liar…ok, call me one, but I took the time to not only post like I said I would, take the time for this order, like I said I would, and do everything to make this order happen again, like I said I would. What do I have to gain from lying about this? Usually the one with something to loose will start changing the story to make it most beneficial to their point of view. I lose nothing and I don’t gain anything. The order will continue without FRA involved, I feel bad for Alex, quite frankly. FRA took away a great Christmas bonus from a guy that was passionate about his work. He didn’t get this great order, which when self employed is your only chance of a Christmas bonus, and I am guessing that living in Hawaii, isn’t cheap. Are you happy that you let your profit margin get between Alex and his lifestyle? The comments that were made about how the money that we were going to spend on the group buy could have been spent on more expensive higher profit margin items in your store is a crock as well. Steve the fact that this order wasn’t yours to begin with will not be overlooked. Your lack of caring about the people that you have stepped on WILL catch up with you at some point. If anyone needs information that is not listed on this forum, I am available by Cell @ 303.210.7289.
  #25  
Old 01/11/2008, 04:14 PM
aspenimages aspenimages is offline
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All wholesalers have policies that basically revolve around a minimum order. I am a wholesale manufacturer and if a group of people want to order from me and can meet my minimums, then I accept the order. It's really not that complicated! If one of my stores called up and complained after finding out I was supplying their potential customers directly, I would have informed them that they weren't going to get the business anyway and move on. This is what Alex should have done. None, or very few of us, would have bought anything like this from FRA. First, very few of us would go up there to shop, and B, he doesn't stock this type of inventory. So, he would not have gotten this business anyway. By putting together a group buy, we had met Alex's requirements, in fact it may have been larger than any order FRA would have put together! Anyway, by Steve sticking his foot in the way all he really hurt is himself. So, by coming full circle, he still doesn't get any of our business and now he NEVER will!!! Nice job Steve, thanks for the business lesson!
 

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