Amino Feeding Denitrator

[acrylic_300]

I was wondering what would happen if you would feed aminos into a carbon feed style denitrator.

Or a mix of carbon and aminos.... amino syrup (w/sugar) or amino cocktail (w/vodka).

Can anyone speculate? The carbon fed denitrator is in fine working order already.

[bertoni]

Interesting question. I am sure something would consume at least some of the amino acids, but I have no idea what organism that would be and what the effect would be on the display.

[acrylic_300]

It might just go into the nitrogen cycle...turn to ammonia, nitrite, nitrate. I'm not sure how that works in a low oxygen zone though. It might skip nitrate and go right into gas form and exit.

Nitrate reactors move pretty slow....it might pump out bacteria laden water (dead or alive?).

A lot of things it "could" do...maybe break the aminos down into elemental sulfer or sulfate or sufide depending on how much oxygen is there. (I have no idea why I think that).

[mesocosm]

Greetings All !

Originally posted by acrylic_300
... Or a mix of carbon and aminos.... amino syrup (w/sugar) or amino cocktail (w/vodka). ...

The carbon source you select could have a profound effect on how the amino acids gets utilized.

Originally posted by acrylic_300
I was wondering what would happen if you would feed aminos into a carbon feed style denitrator. ...

Dosed amino acids would definitely get utilized ...

Uptake of ammonium by bacteria is very low whereas uptake of dissolved free amino acids (DFAA) is high in eutrophic estuaries (the Delaware Bay and Chesapeake Bay).

The uptake of inorganic nutrients by heterotrophic bacteria
Kirchman, DL
Microbial Ecology. Vol. 28, no. 2, pp. 255-271. 1994.
http://md1.csa.com/partners/viewreco...&setcookie=yes

There's more on this stuff ... much more ... but here a few representative examples of source literature which may lend insight into what's going on when you dose an amino acid solution into a denitrification vessel ...

Utilization of dissolved free and combined amino acids (DFAA and DCAA) by two types of bacterial isolates in artificial seawater was investigated. One type of isolate had proteolytic activity and the other did not. Both types of isolates utilized DFAA in artifical seawater, but there was some selectivity of amino acids and a certain threshold concentration below which DFAA was no longer utilized. The bacterial isolate which had proteolytic activity utilized asein in artificial seawater, and the amount of DFAA did not increase. During incubation the composition of DFAA changed significantly, while that of DCAA did not change markedly. It is suggested that marine bacteria utilize not only DFAA but also labile DCAA rapidly when it is added to seawater and they play an important role in determining the concentration and composition of dissolved amino acids in the marine ecosystem.

Utilization of dissolved amino acids in seawater by marine bacteria
M. Amano, S. Hara and N. Taga
Marine Biology, Volume 68, Number 1 / May, 1982

(abstract)
http://www.springerlink.com/content/x810553314w43781/

The nitrogen metabolism of natural bacterial assemblages was studied in seawater cultures enriched with the dissolved materials released by the mussel Mytilus edulis. The mussel released dissolved organic C, NH4, and dissolved organic N (DON), mostly in the form of combined amino acids (~70-100%) that constituted 30% of the total N released. NH4 techniques showed that the contribution of NH4 to total microbial N demand during growth ranged from 50 to 88% even when large amounts of DON were utilized (~70-260% of total bacterial N produced). An average of 80% of the DON used was converted to NH4, showing simultaneous assimilation and regeneration of NH4 by the natural microbial population and contradicting the idea that NH4 assimilation occurs only when orgnaic N is limiting.

Amino Acid and Ammonium Utilization by Heterotrophic Marine Bacteria Grown in Enriched Seawater
Luis Tupas, Isao Koike
Limnology and Oceanography, Vol. 35, No. 5 (Jul., 1990), pp. 1145-1155

(abstract)
http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=002...OR-enlargePage

The bottom line of what I take to be the jest of your question is that you'd get three principal outcomes: (1) Enriched bacterial biomass growth; (2) Increased bacterial metabolic behavior (which may, or may not have anything to do with denitrification ... see below); and, (3) Utilization of the amino acids by bacteria outside the denitrification vessel (... which bertoni has already pointed out).

Who might really love amino acid dosing besides the denitrifiers you're targeting? Cyanobacteria.

Two other variables are perhaps worth pointing out: The gene sequences of the bacteria strain (... the genome of a bacterial strain exterts a wildly important influence on what the bacteria does with substrates it encounters in its environment), and, the availability of an electron donor (... if there's no substrate to give up electrons to "process" the NO3 molecules, it doesn't matter how much bacteria metabolic behavior is increased).


Within a "broader" context ... ...

While I suspect we're going to be waiting another few decades before someone gets bored enough to analyze what's actually going on with dissolved free amino acids (DFAA) in marine aquaria, analysis of natural ecosystems has been going on for several decades. It turns out that DFAA in natural marine ecosystems is directly associated with (1) sequestration in living zooplankton, phytoplankton, and bacteria, and (2) particulates resulting (primarily) from the degradation of zooplankton, phytoplankton, and bacteria. To get a better handle on what I'm talking about, check out the reference listed below. Among other things, it presents an intriguing breakdown of amino acid composition of plankton and particulates (... contrast the four highest values of this list to the known ingredients list of common amino acid & bacterioplankton system products ...), check out table 6.1 on page 6. If you're going to play around with DFAA supplementation into bioreactors, these four might be reasonable components of whatever "first" formulae you create ...

Chapter 6: Amino Acid and Amine Biogeochemistry in Marine Particulate Material and Sediments
Nitrogen Cycling in Coastal Marine Environments
Edited by T. H. Blackburn and J. Sorensen
John Wiley & Sons Ltd, 1988
http://globalecology.stanford.edu/DG...ee_125-142.pdf



If you want to get into the serious biochemistry of how amino acids might get used within the confines of a denitrification vessel, and how this could affect the rest of the system, this one is perhaps worth wading through ...

Elemental Stoichiometry in Nutrient Pools in Oligotrophic Marine Ecosystems
Anna Lucea Sureda
Dissertation presented for the title of PhD in Marine Science of the Doctorate Programme of Marine Science, oganized by the Universitat Politecnica de Catalunya, Universitat de Barcelona and Consejo Superior de Investigaciones Cientificas.
November 2003

At a 154 pages, trust me when I say you'll need to wade ...




JMO ... HTH ... sorry for the length.

[mesocosm]

Greetings All !

Originally posted by acrylic_300
It might just go into the nitrogen cycle...turn to ammonia, nitrite, nitrate. ...

DFAA will definitiely make it into the nitrogen cycle. The real question is the form that it will take. Some of the DFAA will get passed through into the main system (the most "clean" entry into the nitrogen cycle), but most of it will get assimilated for catalysis into bacterial structural components. Entry into the nitrogen cycle may be further delayed until the cellular component degrades.

Originally posted by acrylic_300
... it might pump out bacteria laden water ...

Not unless there's a shear force to dislodge bits of the biomass from the surface it's growing on, although a small percentage of the denitrifiers will undergo normal detachment processes.

Originally posted by acrylic_300
... maybe break the aminos down into elemental sulfer or sulfate or sufide depending on how much oxygen is there. ...

This could happen ... but only if specific types of bacteria and the appropriate microclimate (low O2, for example) are present. Specifically, there would need to be some strain of SRB ("sulfur-reducing bacteria") present. Aside from the structural uses for amino acids, different strains of bacteria will do wildly different things with an amino acid. The differences in metabolic behavior between, for example, general heterotrophs, nitrifiers, denitrifiers, SRB, IOB, and fermenters (all of which have been speculated to be in marine aquaria, or are commonly used in marine aquaculture) is significant.



HTH

[acrylic_300]

Cool...I will have lots to read tomorrow. Of course I wouldn't be wondering so much about it if I hadn't already dosed some in my reactor

[acrylic_300]

Any chance someone could pm me a password to that journal

The last article gave me an idea....im going to mix some spirulina powder with sugar and aminos then soak it in water from the denitrator until it starts to degrade then feed it to the tank.

I think this will give the bacteria a surface to ride on until it gets eaten.

[mesocosm]

Greetings All !

Originally posted by acrylic_300
Any chance someone could pm me a password to that journal ...

Hmmm ... the links work for me. Some of the article clearing sites require registration (it's free) before you can access their stuff (... unhappily, most also require payment to access the full article).



It seems I stupidly forget one. The link to ...

Elemental Stoichiometry in Nutrient Pools in Oligotrophic Marine Ecosystems
Anna Lucea Sureda
Dissertation presented for the title of PhD in Marine Science of the Doctorate Programme of Marine Science, oganized by the Universitat Politecnica de Catalunya, Universitat de Barcelona and Consejo Superior de Investigaciones Cientificas.
November 2003

... is this: http://www.tdx.cesca.es/TESIS_UPC/AV...426/THESIS.pdf

It takes a few moments to load ...

Originally posted by acrylic_300
... The last article gave me an idea.... im going to mix some spirulina powder with sugar and aminos then soak it in water from the denitrator until it starts to degrade then feed it to the tank. ...

Interesting thought ... but be careful. Spirulina (or any other phytoplankton product, for that matter) is a sequestered nutrient source, particularly for N and P. I would suggest using small amounts, as long term dosing of these types of products can generate a slow, creeping increase of nutrients in the water column.

Originally posted by acrylic_300
... I think this will give the bacteria a surface to ride on until it gets eaten.

Oooo ... a macro-aggregate generation "strategy".

This is a "product type" I'm really interested in, and they have a fascinating history (... first with Easy-Life products in the late 1980's, and more recently with Korallen-Zucht and Fauna Marin, although these products use mineral nuclei as the bacterial transport surface). Also, a denitrator vessel is probably not the best place to generate macro-aggregates. Some form of "modified" fluidized bed filter (a la proprietary, or DIY "reactors") will probably be much better.



For more than you ever wanted to know about macro-aggregates (aka "marine snow") ...

The "Mulm" Thread
Reference Literature post
(ZEOville, mesocosm, 3.19.2006)
http://www.zeovit.com/forums/showpos...98&postcount=2

For what you're talking about, this one is perhaps a good place to start ...

Dynamics of Microbial Communities on Marine Snow Aggregates: Colonization, Growth, Detachment, and Grazing Mortality of Attached Bacteria
Thomas Kiørboe, Kam Tang, Hans-Peter Grossart, and Helle Ploug
Applied and Environmental Microbiology, June 2003, p. 3036-3047, Vol. 69, No. 6

Full Article
http://aem.asm.org/cgi/content/full/...type=HWCIT#top





For other generalized articles about bacteria and how they are probably behaving in marine aquaria ...

The Bacteria Thread
Reference Literature post
(ZEOville, mesocosm, 2.11.2006)
http://www.zeovit.com/forums/showpos...4&postcount=17



HTH

[acrylic_300]

Thanks. after reading through some of it I realize that the particles need to be moving for the bacteria to attach.

I think I will squeeze some water out of a sponge I have in a high flow area (bubble trap) into a petri dish and lay it on top of my air compressor so it stays warm and titrates from the vibrations.

With spirulina powder, aminos, and sugar in the mix.