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#1
12/25/2007, 10:16 PM
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Critters found under microscope?
Hello all, I have been fighting a battle with LPS recession since August of this year. I have posted several times trying to figure out what is going on. What happens is the outer most tissue receeds till the colony finally withers away. only the outer margin seems to be affected. It seems to be most prevalent in Acans and micromussas, but also is receeding all LPS corlas in the tank. It is a slow process that takes weeks to months to kill one colony depending on size. I have currently lost over 30 acans and 7 blasto wellsis, and 5 candy canes.
I have done everything I can think of to eliminate water quality issues. and have gone as far as to tear down the tank completely and scrub all live rock and use a heavy dip of tropic marin pro coral cure for all corals. then replacing 80% of the water. the tank looked better for a couple weeks and now is back to the same recession. One thing I have always seen but cant explain is there is usually a small mucus that wraps around the coral right where the tissue meets the dead skeloten. it will blow off easily with a turkey baster. I finally took a serenge today and sucked some up and looked at it under my microscope. I was surprised to see just how many critters were living in it. It looked like the mucus was holding eggs. and all over the place were little critters swimming around. these by the way cant be seen with the naked eye. So my question is this. Is it possible that this a pest eating my corals, or is this a opportunistic feeder that just happens to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. If someone feels this isnt posted in the correct forrum please let me know, there really should be a forrum to discuss diseases of corals! any input would be appreciated |
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#2
12/26/2007, 11:56 AM
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Greetings All !
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The "little critters swimming around" are possibly comprised of a variety of ciliates ... this would be entirely normal. Coral mucus is typically rich in micro-beasties. This is because the mucus is rich in saccarides ("sugars"), bacteria colonies, and readily entangles whatever particulates happen to be present in the tank. In other words, coral mucus has the potential to be a rich growth medium for a wide variety of microorganisms. Quote:
If you haven't sampled high densities of micro-beasties from a place on one of your LPS where tissue recession/necrosis is occuring, then I suspect that micro-organism infestation isn't the core problem. Also, I notice in your descriptions that the recession starts from the outer edge and works its way inward. One would expect that a "pest infestation" wouldn't be quite so region-specific ... you would expect to see "damage areas" scattered throughout the surface of the impacted specimen. You would also expect it to "pick up speed" as the pathogen population increased. JMO ... HTH 
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Mesocosm |
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#3
12/26/2007, 12:08 PM
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Greetings All !
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... excellent.   From your other posts over the last 4 months , I gather that ... (1) We're talking about relatively long-term success with the specimens involved, and we're talking about an overall stable & successful marine aquarium. (2) The tissue recession isn't species-specific. (3) The recession "pattern" is roughly the same, regardless of genera (outward --> inward). (4) There are no specific observations correlated to micro-organisms on either the Caulastrea, or the Euphyllia specimens. (5) You've recently added a Kalk reactor. (6) You describe a history of alkalinty & Ca issues (just like almost everyone else, myself included ).(7) You've done a tank "tear down", a physical assault on the surface of the LR, an 80% H2O change (and more), things looked immediately better, and then things went into decline again. I got these here: (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/se...=&pagenumber=1) Please correct me if I'm mis-reading things ... I can see why you've begun to focus on the disease & pathogen tangents. I hesitate to suggest this (... you know what you're doing, and you've already been there ...), but it seems to me that something more basic than micro-beasties run amuck is going on (... although this could easily be an important, secondary issue). More specifically ... alkalinity instability. I know, I know ... been there, done that ... you were hoping for something more than the all too frequent "catch-all" feedback. Apologies ... I go back to this because of the reported history of the tank, the recent insertion of a kalk reactor toy, the pattern of recession/necrosis, the relatively slow rate of recession/necrosis, and the absence of more diagnostic indicators of pathogens (... given the time that this has been going on, I would have expected to see more randomized spots of tissue damage, visible to the naked eye congregations of pests, and an increasing rate of impact as the pest population grew). As far as specific recommendations ... double check the alkalinity level, and if it's still around ~8 dKH, raise to ~ 9 dKH ... if you haven't already, increase the number of Ca, alkalinity, Mg, and pH tests you're doing to confirm that the new kalk reactor isn't generating unexpected chemical equilibrium shifts ... if repeated, stagger the dipping and the water changes so they're not happening simultaneously (doing the large H2O change and dipping together makes it hard to decide which caused the temporary improvement that you saw). It's the "consistency of pattern" across different genera that really gets me, because I've had similar experiences with dKH being out of whack. I've seen the outward --> inward recession-death boogaloo in Favia, Favites, Trachophyllia, Caulastrea, Acropora, and Montipora way too often in recently imported specimens ... all eventually traced back to dKH issues ... not to go there. Speaking of "recently imported" ... we're in what I call "phase 2" of the current duncan market exploitation madness, and import chain of custody savagery game. My point is ... after the first wave of "the next hottest species in the marketplace" craze, there follows a "phase 2" where quality, standards, and specimen survivability plummet radically as importers and distributors scrabble to cash in before the market price structures collapse (... it's an importer version of musical death chairs. The last importer left standing loses serious cash). You may well have acquired specimens that have been "impacted". Given this, the "disease" tangent may actually be "slow motion" death resulting from the specimen's experience in the chain of custody. Allelopathy ... as distinct from pathogens ... is another possibility, as you've already posted. I would have expected recession/necrosis in response to a chemical release to be much more rapid than what you describe. Are you running GAC? If you're concerned about the allelopathy issues you raised in some of your other posts, I'd be interested in reading how you are dealing with the possibility. JMO ... HTH ... apologies for the length
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Mesocosm Last edited by mesocosm; 12/26/2007 at 12:14 PM. |
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#4
12/26/2007, 12:13 PM
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What kind of current do you have in this tank ? Current is very important for corals for shedding excessive mucous. If it is not shed and just gets trapped on the coral it becomes a home for many micro-organisms.
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If you See Me Running You Better Catch-Up An explosion can be defined as a loud noise, accompanied by the sudden going away of things, from a place where they use to be. |
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#5
12/26/2007, 09:35 PM
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Mesocosm, thank you so much for your time. you obviously took an interest in my problem and for that i am very greatful. I have yet to feel like anyone was interested in helping me here.
As for the tank: My calcium and Alk have always been a issue with me for some reason. But they really have been fairly stable for several years. they just are a very low stable. which I had very little new growth with my SPS, and slow growth with my LPS. But all seemed to always be happy. My calcium has run in the mid 300's and ALK flutuates around 5.6 - 7 DKH. I have been dosing tropic marin Bio calcium, seachem magnesium, and baking soda try to pull my levels up. but I seem to be fighting an uphill battle. I cant ever seem to reach the levels I want, and the level seem to drop as fast as I get them up. I have been in the saltwater hobby for along time, and for whatever lucky reason I have never really had any problems. and for years I never even added anything to the tank other than water changes. So I have kinda been thrown under the buss so to speak with this situation. So I have been having to learn things alittle to quickly. HEHE! It really gets overwhelming. And the fact that I see a very large invesment of time and money slowing dieng is really making it difficult. most days I kinda wish the tank had just crashed and there was an obvious reason. so I can start over knowing what was wrong and improve on it. I ordered a new custom 185 tank several months ago and it is being delivered tomorrow. So I really want to figure out what is going on with my system before even thinking about setting up the new tank. I dont want to risk this problem transfering to the new tank. Do you think that my ALK being at 6DKH can be a culprit? I know it is low, but I hear of alot of people with LPS tanks that run there ALK low. I just have a hard time seeing the ALK or calcium causeing this result unless it is extremely low. But I am no biologist so I am here to learn! Also Most if not all of the dead and dieing corals were started as frags in this same low ALK and calcium, and have grown to large colonies. I hope that the problem is just a issue with me not dosing enough stuff. Is it possible that the corals have grown so much that they can no longer survive with the low levels? or is it possible that I have overloaded the tank with LPS and am starving them somehow? I have definalty probly doubled the population of LPS shortly prior to this recession. Anymore info you have to offer would be much apreciated! Boomer, I have alot of current in the tank, the mucus doesnt stay very long. I have to search around my tank to find a coral that has some on it still to sample it. the corals that seem to always have the mucus are the acans, and Scollys, brains. but it is hit or miss finding the mucus still on the corals. My frogspawn and hammer colonies dont ever show mucus, I dont know why? but there recession isnt near as fast. I am about to lose my first head off my branching hammer to recession. and it has taken 4 months to get that bad. |
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#6
12/26/2007, 10:01 PM
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OK Mes, my old buddy, will try to fix you up
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If you See Me Running You Better Catch-Up An explosion can be defined as a loud noise, accompanied by the sudden going away of things, from a place where they use to be. |
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#7
12/27/2007, 12:18 PM
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Greetings All !
Quote:
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 . Stay tuned, my friend ... we're going to need you in a moment. Quote:
The shout-out ... Boomer ... oh, Boomer? ... Quote:
... and his fingernail clippings have forgotten more about this stuff than I'll ever know. The background of why I became so interested ... I have a disturbing fascination with systems that utilize bacterial export and zeolithic media to get at low nutrient levels in the water column, increased growth rates, and "improved" "color". The issue that you posted matches one of the issues described by folks running these types of systems when their alkalinity deviates from NSW levels. In other words, two wildly different and divergent reefkeeping systems, each run by experienced reefkeepers who know what they're talking about are presenting the same issue. This is a real opportunity to add to the knowledge-base about a topic that has vexed reefkeepers for years, regardless of the type of system they're running. I couldn't let it pass without comment ... JMO ... HTH
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Mesocosm |
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#8
12/27/2007, 12:26 PM
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Greetings All !
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Stay strong. The Reefkeeping Gods reward the persistent, and punish the weak ... and the trendy. It has been ever thus ...  Quote:
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So much for having a definitive model that explains things ...  Quote:
Coral Energy Budget ... Scleractinians utilize some fascinating nutritional pathways, and they can alter the equilibrium between these different pathways in response to the conditions in which they find themselves. Whenever I see slow, creeping recession I think of both water chemistry, and what the specimen is doing in terms of balancing autotrophy (photosynthesis), and heterotrophy (feeding). Yes ... although they are two different mechanisms, it is possible that a shut-down of skeletogenesis (CaCO3 skeleton building) due to low alkalinity/calcium could have negatively disrupted how the specimen manipulated its energy budget ... leading to slow death. Slow "starvation"? ... perhaps. (As an aside ... you posted in the other threads that you're actively feeding the corals, yes? What are you feeding, and have you altered the feeding patterns recently?) Tissue ... What does the tissue of the impacted specimens "look like" as the specimens progress towards necrosis? One of the more interesting ... although disturbingly ill-defined ... observations to come out of the bacterioplankton filtration camp involves the appearance of coral tissues as a health diagnostic (... not that this hasn't been commented on for a long time). Terms like "dry", "puffy", "dull", "skinny" ... and the ever so useful "good" & "bad" ... describing the external appearnace of scleractinian tissues are being used when evaluating system status, coral health, and perhaps most relevant to this discussion ... coral nutritional status. At the risk of adding another variable where none is required, and of introducing a concept that is currently too ill-defined to be helpful ... have you observed any "shift" in your specimens' tissue "appearance"? JMO ... HTH
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Mesocosm Last edited by mesocosm; 12/27/2007 at 12:50 PM. |
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#10
12/27/2007, 02:46 PM
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The shout-out ... Boomer ... oh, Boomer? ...
Ok, Ok my ears hurt My calcium has run in the mid 300's and ALK flutuates around 5.6 - 7 DKH. That is low, 5.6 and they do not live in that kind of environment. It will slow down their growth rate as it is more difficult to bring carbonates and Ca++ across the barriers. In reef tanks these levels should be a little higher than NSW. You should be more like 7- 10 and your Ca++ over 400. You are not making things easier for these animal at these low levels but more difficult. I have been dosing tropic marin Bio calcium, seachem magnesium, and baking soda try to pull my levels up. I would stop with the Bio-Calcium and get ionic Calcium. I am not a believer in organic bound Calcium or so called Bio calciums and neither is Randy. It is tied up and I do not think it is all that available as they claim. I also think they add to the bioload and lower pH, Alk and cause CO2 increase. That is what most organics do. The Chemical & Biochemical Mechanisms of Calcification in Corals http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/apr2002/chem.htm Effect of increased calcium concentration in sea water on calcification and photosynthesis in the scleractinian coral Galaxea fascicularis http://jeb.biologists.org/cgi/conten...ct/205/14/2107 I seem to be fighting an uphill battle. I cant ever seem to reach the levels I want, and the level seem to drop as fast as I get them up. Please define that  Do mean Ca++, pH and Alk etc. won't keep up ? You might want to invest in a Kalk reactor or maybe even a dual phase calcium reactor. What are your WC rates ?
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If you See Me Running You Better Catch-Up An explosion can be defined as a loud noise, accompanied by the sudden going away of things, from a place where they use to be. |
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#11
12/27/2007, 11:52 PM
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to answer some questions;
what am I feeding the corals - acans, micros and blastos I feed mysis, cyclops, reef chili. I have not been feeding very much lately cause it didnt seem to help and I was worried that it might have in some way been the cause. what does the tissue look like- Funny thing is that you cant tell there is a problem with any of the interior tissue. the coral is puffy, colorful, and feeds normally. all the way to the edge of the recession, even polyps that are half way gone still swell up. there apears to be no stress whatsoever. get a kalk or calcium reactor - This all started when I added a GEO Kalk reactor. I have it setup with a tunze osmolator that is just feeding as top off. I only stir it twice a day for 10 minutes. SO I dont think it is overdoing it? I am in the process of setting up a new tank I just had delivered today and have a geo calcium reactor for it. I was worried about installing the calcium reactor on this tank with all that is going on with it. I didnt want to introduce another stressful situation. not to mention I have never run a calcium reactor and dont want to practice on a tank that is already suffering. water readings - My water levels always seem to bottom out at 6dkh, 360 calcium, and 900 magnesium. I can add additives to raise it up but after a few days it is right back down. Unfortunately I have not done my diagnostics very well, As I have been so stressed about what is going on that I rush around and try doing several changes at once and dont keep a log of any of them. I guess I really need to sit down and make a log sheet and meticulosly check my water for a couple weeks and keep track of it better. |
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#12
12/28/2007, 12:02 AM
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Many tanks require daily dosing of alkalinity and calcium, so more of the Bio-Calcium might be appropriate. That product actually contains calcium chloride, despite the name.
Raising magnesium would be good, in my opinion, but will take a very large amount of supplement, spread out over several days. The SeaChem magnesium is mostly epsom salts, and I'd use something based on magnesium chloride, like Kent Tech-M or the ESV supplement. They would keep the ionic balance more reasonable.
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Jonathan Bertoni |
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#13
12/28/2007, 12:13 AM
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What is your daily Alk and Ca++ consumption ? How is your pH and what is your pH. And what is your PO4 and NO3 ?
Your real problem sounds like that tank is out of ionic balance and needs some large muti- WC, like 30 % 3 days in a row. I think the other issue is you "think" you are taking good care of the tank and are not. To much tinkering is not good, although one means well. I use to be like that. In other words, your tank is not stable For the future if needed A Guide to Using Calcium Reactors http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-0...ture/index.htm Calcium Reactor setup calculator (CaCO3/CO2 reactors) http://home.comcast.net/~jdieck1/reactor.html
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If you See Me Running You Better Catch-Up An explosion can be defined as a loud noise, accompanied by the sudden going away of things, from a place where they use to be. |
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#14
12/28/2007, 12:19 AM
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Ive been getting pushed to the tropic marin products as being a quality product. But I get the feeling you guys might think less of them. So should I stay away from there suplements? Or let me ask it this way.
What would be the best product on the market for raising ALK? what is the best product on the market for raising Magnesium? what is the best product on the market for raising Calcium? Would a calcium reactor be the best answer for all these? I really dont want to have to be testing my water every day and adding chemicals every day just to keep things in balance. I dont mind in situations like im in now. but long term what is the best solution for stability? |
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#15
12/28/2007, 12:29 AM
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There are a lot of good products for supplementing those parameters. "Best" is a matter of opinion. The Bio-Calcium is inconvenient, but is okay as long as the parameters are in reasonable shape.
In your situation, I would use baking soda and calcium chloride, dissolved in RO-DI water, to fix the alkalinity and calcium levels. Kent Turbo Calcium is a fine calcium chloride product, but there are others that are just as good. Calcium chloride is available in bulk quantities, as well. For magnesium, I've used the Kent Tech-M and ESV supplements, and they are fine. The Warner and Salifert are good as well. Again, bulk quantities are available, too. For the long term, a calcium reactor is a very common choice. Using a DIY 2-part is also okay. Neither would require daily testing. TwoPartSolution.com and Buckey Field Supply both sell the supplements in bulk.
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Jonathan Bertoni |
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#16
12/28/2007, 12:37 AM
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I am not sure what my concumption is. and dont really know how to figure it? can you please explain.
My PH drops as low as 8.1 at night, and raises as much as 8.5 during the day. spending the better part of the day at between 8.2 - 8.3. as for water changes, I have tried various methods of water changes, from small water changes regularly to nearly a complete water change. the small water changes had little to no affect, the medium water changes (25- 30 %) seemed to have potentially an adverse affect. the one time i basically did a tank tear down and replaced 80% of the water was the closest ive seen to a turn around. the tank over the next couple weeks was looking much better and the corals even appeared to be growing back again. after about the 3rd week I could tell the tank was going back down hill. I waited a few more days then did several small water changes. with no affect. then I did another large 60% water change with no affect. So I dont really know what the deal is there. As for phosphate I havent checked it in a few weeks but it usually is detectable but very low. I also run Phosguard in a phosban reactor. my nitrate is -0- |
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#17
12/28/2007, 12:43 AM
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I was where you are not too long ago. Seems like I was overwhelmed with measuring, inaccuracies in test kits or my skill in testing and dosing to a fault without ever really being able to keep the system in balance and never really understanding balance and all of it's elements. The articles at the beggining of this forum by Randy Holmes Farely,although difficult for a non science type like me,were worth the effort.
I finally decided on a calcium reactor and limewater drip combination with extremely rare tweaking with calcium chloride and bi carbonate and I am very happy with it. I am able to maintain continuous balance and good levels with a lot less effort and testing.
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Tom |
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#18
12/28/2007, 08:49 AM
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Greetings All !
ironman2 ... Many Thanks for the additional information! Very Useful Quote:
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I couldn't agree more with everything bertoni posted about calcium and alkalinity supplements ... JMO ... HTH
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Mesocosm |
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#19
12/28/2007, 08:50 AM
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Greetings All !
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I've had experiences very similar to tmz's ... JMO ... HTH
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Mesocosm |
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#20
12/28/2007, 11:13 AM
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am not sure what my consumption is. and don't really know how to figure it? can you please explain.
My PH drops as low as 8.1 at night, and raises as much as 8.5 during the day. spending the better part of the day at between 8.2 - 8.3. Well, your pH is great Consumption is how much you must add for Alk / day to get the Alk you want. The same for Ca++ and Mg++. For example, if you measure your Ca++ on Monday and it is 400 ppm what does it measure on Tuesday ? Lets say 395. That means you are using 5 ppm / day and is what you must add/ day, which is your daily consumption of Ca++. If you do not do this / day and do it / wk it drops to low and is what is part of your issue. The why you can not keep it up. The corals are using these to grow. Your corals are living in a see-saw environment, which is stressful. Once you know the daily consumption then you can set up a automated system. See below I really don't want to have to be testing my water every day and adding chemicals every day just to keep things in balance. I don't mind in situations like I'm in now. but long term what is the best solution for stability? Well, that is the way you run a reef tank. The only way around this is with dosing system, like DIY drip, a kalk or calcium reactor or a combination. And any of these are adding chemicals every day. You dial them in based on daily consumption. For example; A DIY drip system. A tank evaporates water every day. In a perfect situation lets say it is 1 gal/day in a 50 gal tank. The Alk consumption is 1 dKH / day and the Ca++ is 7 ppm / day. You get a 5 gal container and fill it with RO/DI water and add Kalk to it at x concentration. You then let it drip at a rate equal to 1 gal / day. You find out this keeps the Alk, Ca++ and pH pretty much in check/ day for 1 week. You then refill the container of the same each week and run tests each week to make sure things are in-line. Some more reading for you. How to Select a Calcium and Alkalinity Supplementation Scheme http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/feb2003/chem.htm
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If you See Me Running You Better Catch-Up An explosion can be defined as a loud noise, accompanied by the sudden going away of things, from a place where they use to be. Last edited by Boomer; 12/28/2007 at 11:19 AM. |
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#21
12/28/2007, 07:47 PM
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Could you give a full rundown (brands, models and setup; fish, etc.) of your System and a schedule of your testing, water changes, bulb changes, filter changes, pipe changes, etc.?
It sounds like a combination of factors. Something may be just fine with one or two problem factors but the more issues you add (including ones we can’t see or monitor) the less chance of having a successful tank. |
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#22
12/28/2007, 10:31 PM
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well I get the idea I should go ahead and setup the calcium reactor. I have a good friend in town that has been using the same reactor for a year and a half with good success. I will work on it tomorrow. I guess between my kalk reactor and adding this calcium reactor I should be able to stabilize my Alk and Ca. I will start my new water testing log also to better understand my consumption, and water peramiters.
One other question, What do yall think about adding the dolomite or whatever they call it, to the calcium reactor to keep up the magnesium? is it a waste of time, should I stick with manually adding it? Thanks again for all the VERY good information, I have learned more in the last few days that in 12 years in the hobby. and honestly Ive learned more than I wanted to! HEHE! I will Check back with you guys and give some updates as the new method of Alk and Ca addition begins. thanks again |
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#23
12/28/2007, 11:33 PM
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I have tried to learn a bit more about dolmite and tried unsuccessfuly to find a placet to get it. In the meantime, I realized my magnesium doesn't deplete very much and a bit of dosing every few months is not a real chore. (I do use a salt that is considered high in magnesium.)
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Tom |
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#24
12/29/2007, 12:30 PM
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One other question, What do yall think about adding the dolomite or whatever they call it, to the calcium reactor to keep up the magnesium? is it a waste of time, should I stick with manually adding it?
No it is not a waste of time, it was something I brought into he hobby many years ago. Just make sure if you go with a reactor you DO NOT fill it all with Dolomite. Start with no more than 10 % of the total media vol being dolomite. If you fill it with all Dolomite the Mg++ will get to high and the Alk will be through the roof. I might add there are actually very few aquarium companies anymore that have dolomite. Years ago it was very common as a substrate. No there are only a couple of companies in this hobby that have it. You can get dolomite from landscaping stores but often you have to crush it yourself to a smaller size. I have many post here on the chemisty and geology of dolomite. http://reefcentral.com/forums/search...der=descending ZeoMag http://www.captiveoceans.com/product...pplements.html
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If you See Me Running You Better Catch-Up An explosion can be defined as a loud noise, accompanied by the sudden going away of things, from a place where they use to be. |
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