A little story about a EBAY RODI. - Page 7

rsxs1212 · #**151** 09/21/2006, 06:18 AM

thats not what im saying and by the way i got mine for 67 with free shipping

.. which unit is this 269.. what are the specs on it and such?? id like to see it..

clkwrk · #**152** 09/21/2006, 08:56 AM

go back thru the thread an get the link.

BeanAnimal · #**153** 09/21/2006, 09:30 AM

rsxs,

One day when you get a little older and more educated, you will understand that you can not forsake science for opinion. If the opinion is not formed on good science, then the opinion is worthless, no matter how good it feels.

Sadly, there are many mature adults here who seem to value opinion more than fact. They value it [opinion] so much that they confuse it with fact and use it to argue like it is fact. The sooner you learn to think in a logical manner and use FACT and sound LOGIC to form your opinion, the sooner you will rise above your peers in terms of education and awareness.

RichConley · #**154** 09/21/2006, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by RobbyG
My Humble Apologies Rich But you got to admit that's not going to be the case for someone with 250 - 400 TDS like most of us.

I never said it was. I've been saying repeatedly that if you have bad tap water, then you absolutely should buy the good units, but for those of us with good tap, its not worth it. Thats all I've said.

xclan · #**155** 09/21/2006, 09:51 AM

well well can we see about 4 more pages of this arguement?

I have 3 Ro/Di systems, including a cheapo eBay unit. As far as I am concerned it does its job. No guages, no meters...the people who buy those units arent the people that spend 30,000$ on their tanks and they shouldnt be crucified for it. They acknowledged that they needed better water and that is what they got on a budget. They dont have the best reject rate, or maybe not the lowest TDS but shall we sit here and argue all day over wether they are useless? Or not a "BENZ"? Maybe I should go to everyones thread that post pictures of their tanks and mention that their tank is a "pinto" compared to a "Benz"? Thats what this thread had turned into.

There was a lot of useful information in this thread but honestly the thread became useless with all the argueing. You all need to go back to College and join a debate team, because apparently thats all we are here for. Go ahead, find something bad to say about my post, or bad spelling and make fun of it. I wont be reading it anyhow because this thread is dead as far as I am concerned.

LegoZ81 · #**156** 09/21/2006, 10:51 AM

xclan, the point is that you will long term spend more money on DI than someone who bought a lower GPD higher rejection membrane.
this will over time offset the cost between the 2 units.

BeanAnimal · #**157** 09/21/2006, 12:01 PM

xclan,

Not to start a war, but it uniformed posts such as yours that create the arguement in the fisrt place. The whole point is that the "budget" units (as you call them) many (most) times turn out not to be "budget" units at all.

Posts like yours tug on the heart strings of those trying to save money. "It feels right, and they cost less, so don't give the poor reefers trying to save money a hard time" Its nonsense.

Please look at the simple operating cost over the lifespan of the unit. For that matter look at the lifespan of the unit. Look at the potential for disaster (cheaper components). Look at the OVERALL cost of the effect on yoru system. (It costs money to fight algea and other problems caused by sub-par water).

Honestly... none of it adds up to the "budget" unit costing less.

RichC is trying to make the point that if you have nearly pristine water to begin with (< 50 TDS) that you can get away with the cheap unit. I would tend to somewhat agree with regards to using the resin replacement cost as a payoff point. However if I considered all of the other factors involved, I would likely still buy the better unit. THAT IS OPINION.

Gauges, TDS meters, the other crap... that has nothing to do with the base arguement. Those items add value to ANY unit. Without the right tools, then your throwing darts in the dark at water qaulity. Again something that will diminish the effectiveness of EITHER type of unit.

this is not personal xclan. I just want to illustrate the point I made 2 posts ago. If you use the facts to form an opinion, then we can talk about it. If you just use personal feelings, then your going to be wrong much of the time.

If you would have taken those debate classes that you propose WE take, you would have learned that you can not argue opinion unless you have FACT to back it up. You would also learn that when you don't have FACT, then you need to SPIN what you do have (your opinion) so that it appears to be based in fact. You either come armed with the truth or a convincing way to BS your way through the debate with opinion.

RichConley · #**158** 09/21/2006, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by LegoZ81
xclan, the point is that you will long term spend more money on DI than someone who bought a lower GPD higher rejection membrane.
this will over time offset the cost between the 2 units.

Only if your TDS is over a certain point. You guys have to remember, if it doesnt pay off in the lifetime of the FIRST membrane, there isnt a cost savings. The poor membranes cost about the same as the expensive ones, so after the first 2 years, everyone should have a good membrane.

RobbyG · #**159** 09/21/2006, 01:08 PM

XClan if it was not for debates like this there would be no successful reef tanks Period! Do you know how many people have Published & posted that XYZ and Z is the Holy Grail to keeping your corals alive and your fish Happy. It's only through debates like this that the Myths have been debunked and we have made progress. BTW if you don't believe me, just take up any old 1990's magazine or book on reefkeeping and about half of them will tell you RO is not even needed and that a trickle filter is the filter you must have. BIO Balls are great etc etc.

seattlerob · #**160** 09/21/2006, 01:15 PM

Rich: I tend to agree with you about the ROI being curved, etc, and that those considering the 'best value' or operating within a budget may have valid reasons to buy 'el cheapo' RODI units.

But, besides the membrane, would you not agree that the DI resin is another factor when considering cost? Isn't it correct that the DI resin will get replaced more often than the RO membrane? If that's the case, then DI resin cost factors in as well. Cuz, with a lesser quality RO membrane, you're certainly going to go through the DI resin faster.

Also, if an 'el cheapo' unit comes with the horizontal DI chamber and you wanted to make it equal to the full size veritcal ones, there's some cost there as well. But, I suppose the DI chamber that comes with 'el cheapo' doesn't HAVE to be replaced, but isn't there some agreement that vertical DI chambers are more effective than horizontal (channelling issues, etc)? And, isn't there also some agreement that the horizontal DI chambers setup vertically are still not as good as the full sized vertical DI chambers?

Not trying to argue, but just want to point out everything for the folks reading this thread trying to make a buying decision...

AZDesertRat · #**161** 09/21/2006, 01:33 PM

You also need to factor in final effluent or product water quality. You will never get the same 18.2 megaohm water out most units that you can get for a greatly extended period out of the MaxCap DI. Granted for some "OK" water is good enough but for others like myself "Great" water is all I will settle for.

RichConley · #**162** 09/21/2006, 02:28 PM

seattlerob, my $99 RO unit came with TDS meters, and a horizontal DI. It also came with 3 full sized vertical chambers, so I just used one of those, and bought a $12 refillable DI cartridge from PurelyH20. 2 Prefilters to Membrane to DI, for about $110. The next time I ordered stuff online, I bought another clear canister for $15. Now I'm up to $125. (for sediment-chlorine-carbon-membrane-di) Yes, its a little more expense, but its not the $179+ that would be needed to hit the other units prices.

Azdesertrat, I dont know how much better the MaxCap DI is than AWI and PurelyH20's DI. I just know I get 0 TDS out of the unit, and my reef is doing great. Yes, I may be able to get cleaner water out of the unit, but NO, it wont make a difference in my tank.

seattlerob · #**163** 09/21/2006, 03:33 PM

Rich: kewl! I got my Optima Automated from purelyh2o for $150. That included the Optima RODI unit, the float value/auto shutoff, DI bypass valve & RO membrane flush kit. $150 also got me access to purelyh2o's support (Bryan), which I've used a few times already

BeanAnimal · #**164** 09/21/2006, 04:03 PM

Rich,

The simple problem is that MOST people don't have the same input water quality as you. You can not apply your ROI to those with 200, 300, 400 or whatever input TDS, or chloramines etc.

The "quality" of the components, cust support, initial filter set, fittings, etc also all have something to do with the final price. These may or may not be factors for some people. I do know that a well built product will last much longer than one made of suspect materials and from suspect manufacturers.

This conversation (as usual) will continue to bounce between the facts and the opinions of people. All I really care about is making sure that those who are shopping are armed with the FACTS. I feel it is important to show the light to those folks who constantly ignore the facts and rant and rave about opinion. It simply does nobody any good.

Rich... have you considered some of the other lternatives to RO/DI? The Tap Water Filter or just using DI alone and recharging it? You wouldnt put a LOT less down the drain and save the cost of the membranes.

RichConley · #**165** 09/21/2006, 04:41 PM

I've thought about, but recharging seperate bed DI resins seems like a risky proposition with the chemicals involved. I'm starting to think about using multiple membranes to see if I can get better production/less waste,etc.

How tough is recharging DI resins? All I know is that it involves some harsh chemicals (strong acids and bases)

BeanAnimal · #**166** 09/21/2006, 04:59 PM

A few of our club members do it. It appears to be fairly simple once you get a system worked out. When your done mixing the acid and base together neutralize them and they can be poured down the drain.

AZDesertRat · #**167** 09/21/2006, 05:04 PM

One thing often overlooked and rarely mentioned is when recharging resins they never come back to a full 100% after recharging and get progressively worse until they just don't work at all. Each time it is recharged you lose maybe 5 to 10% efficiency. Another is that DI by itself or even in conjunction with carbon filtration is not going to remove as much as when combined with RO. DI does not do well with some constituents just as carbon or RO do not do well with others. Its really the combination of the three that is the best available technology.

I have worked around treatment plants and chemicals my whole career and I don't feel comfortable having acids and caustics in my home any more than I have to. I don't even like having acid and chlorine for the pool but I also don't want to hire a pool service .

BeanAnimal · #**168** 09/21/2006, 05:20 PM

I etch circuit boards with muriatic acid... it is nasty that needs to be used outdoors (unless you want anything within 20 fet of it to instantly rust).

I also agree that a complete RO/DI system will in most cases provide a better end result. It was just a thought for Rich due to his seemingly almost perfect city water.

rsxs1212 · #**169** 09/21/2006, 07:54 PM

bean i dont think age has anything to do with it.. i am very well eduacated in many things such as cars and i know quiet a bit about reefs.. i will say honestly that the 300$ units ARE better overall and ARE cheaper in the long run.. i just disagree with everyone saying the "el cheapo" units are junk.. they may be bad to start with but they can be made better in some cases.. such as in mine.. i dont really need the gauges and stuff like that.. ill just check the membranes periodically and would do the same with or without the gauges because i just dont trust things like that.. and as far as filters and membranes go as it has been shown in this thread you can get great performance out of these little things for not that much.. now they might not compare to spectrapure, kent, etc, etc... but they are good enough for use.. plus if you have very clean tap water to begin with it also isnt that big of a deal because the filters wont need to do as much work.. its people who have their own way, think its the best and only way, and wont listen to others ideas that get on my nerves.. im not saying that the expensive units are not good, they are and im not saying that they arent the best way, im simply saying they are not the only way to get pure water..

i also dislike when i see individuals call people uneducated or bullheaded because they have tried something different.. i do many of which with the numerous cars i have and such.. i have tried things people said wouldnt work on forums such as these and in the end it ended up being a great design and worked better than it did initially.. and no i am not some little geek kid that all he does is research and stuff.. i just happen to know alot about cars and im getting to know alot about reefs too with trial and error.. i think trial and error is almost always the best way to find things out and its how you get quiet educated..as in my 50 gallon.. i used tap water with the "conditioner" that supposably help make it pure.. i had major problems with water quality because of that.. and switch to distilled.. i also had problems with my HOB filter because of the bio wheels and filter pads.. i removed both of which and nitrates dropped very much.. i then found my prizm skimmer was crap.. i switched to a css 65 ( not very high dollar) but had a world of difference in performance.. now with my 75 i did everything with what i learned from my last tank.. better lighting, a big good quality skimmer, sump, refugim, everything i had learned from my last one.. more flow.. more live rock.. just everything like that.. i dont care how much you read if you never try something you will never know.. who knows maybe there is a trick to the ebay rodi's to get them going good.. i think its people that are willing to try things that will be more sucessful in the long run.. maybe your setup may be good or even great and get the job done.. but through trial and error you can have amazing results..

this is just my opinion.. i know you scientists hate when people say that because its not FACT but im saying it anyway because it is my opinion.. and if you are following scientist way.. remember the scientific law.. hypothesis' and doing experiments and such.. all of which in this situation could include an ebay rodi..

rsxs1212 · #**170** 09/21/2006, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by clkwrk
go back thru the thread an get the link.

im not going back through the thread to find a link..there had been tons of links put in this thread and im not clicking everyone.. i said that if you have one that is better get me the link and all the specs..

Roland Jacques · #**171** 09/21/2006, 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RobbyG
My Humble Apologies Rich But you got to admit that's not going to be the case for someone with 250 - 400 TDS like most of us.

Very cool RobbyG and very ture low TDS or very low water use...

AZDesertRat · #**172** 09/21/2006, 08:17 PM

rsxs,
You are showing your lack of education with several of the statements you just made. You say you don't need gauges and stuff like that but you will check the membranes. How do you propose to check the membrane without the gauge and the necessary tools to do so. That gauge you don't need is one of the most important, inexpensive tools you need to troubleshoot a RO system along with a measuring cup, stop watch and TDS meter. Do you actually know the quality of your tap water? Do you own a TDS meter? Have you ever used it on the tap, RO only and RO/DI and do you know what those numbers mean and what they should be? I think you need to sit back and read these posts a little more along with posts in the vendors forums and manufacturers websites.
They are less expensive because they use lower quality components and that includes filter housings, tube fittings, filters, resin and membranes. They are not the same and will never be the same. The reputable vendors are not raking in the cash as many believe, their products cost more to produce since they use higher quality components and filters and they stake their reputations on them. E-bay vendors come and go and unfortunately most do not have a brick and mortar store but sell out of an overseas shipping container andwhen its empty they are gone along with your money. Generally their guarantees and customer service are sorely lacking and E-bay does very little if anything to help the situation. And its not just E-bay its a lot of auction sites in general.
For $269 I will put my Spectrapure MaxCap RO/DI up against any product on the market. Ther is no reason the cheapo vendors could not build something similar but they choose not to as it will cost them money which is something they don't want to part with.

Here is the link and the specs to the best unit available today and its only $269.
http://www.spectrapure.com/St_MaxCap-RO-DI.htm

flyyyguy · #**173** 09/21/2006, 08:23 PM

I said it before and got accused of laying a guilt trip on people but ill say it again. When you get to a point that you have experience first hand what less than perfect water can do over time, as well as have more than a little bit (or even more than a lot)of money and time invested into this hobby, you will then do the best you can for your tank even if at first glance it only seems like a little bit better. AS little bit goes a long ways. For those who dont feel this way, buy the cheaper units. Many peoples income depends on it.

rsxs1212 · #**174** 09/21/2006, 08:32 PM

yes i have a tds meter.. i meant gauges showing psi.. i got the one that you said was the best in one of my posts a while back.. i dont remember the name of it at the moment and happen to be at our other house this week..i just run to our other one to check up on the tank.. i still dont use the rodi water out of my ebay unit because of the fact that i know it isnt clean yet.. i am putting new membranes and getting a seperate fullsize di housing and such and ill let you know the total cost that it will end up being.. whether it is more or less i dont care.. i have earned this money by myself and when i do get it fixed up it will be working as your unit does or any other good one..

how have i shown my uneduacation?? i dont see any part of what you said and what is said that shows a reflection of education..

like i said im not here to say that it is the best way to go or that the expensive ones are overpriced because i dont believe that.. im here stating that the ebay ones are in fact usable and not complete junk.. i will not back away from that statement because it is what i believe to be true.. i will however agree that they are junk out of box and need slight modifications..

the gauge shows psi.. pounds per square inch.. you can see that by taking the housings off and looking at the membrane quiet easily.. at least that is what i have heard.. so im not saying the meters are good or they are bad... i have only made a couple of gallons of rodi with stock ebay unit and havent look at the membranes yet..

time will only tell the answer.

rsxs1212 · #**175** 09/21/2006, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by flyyyguy
I said it before and got accused of laying a guilt trip on people but ill say it again. When you get to a point that you have experience first hand what less than perfect water can do over time, as well as have more than a little bit (or even more than a lot)of money and time invested into this hobby, you will then do the best you can for your tank even if at first glance it only seems like a little bit better. AS little bit goes a long ways. For those who dont feel this way, buy the cheaper units. Many peoples income depends on it.

income is not the problem here for me and that is not the reason i bought the cheap unit.. i have a job and a bank account that i have been saving up for and i have enough for the car in my avatar picture.. well see about the ebay units.. when im done with mine i will put up a post, get it to a top quality level and performing great.. and post all links to equipment i used and prices.. it may be a while but it will be coming..

and i built my new and old tank on my own.. my parents didnt help me except with transportation..