How much two-part is too much

[MO Will]

Just an update

I recalibrated the litermeter and it seems that the dosing is accurate

I have been trying to keep the magnesium at 1500 and I am now seeing noticably less abiotic precipitation of calcium

I have also mixed all new part A and part B solutions and I still require about 700 mL of each part to maintain levels

I checked my freshly mixed salt - Reef Crystals - and the calcium seems low (370, 1.025)

I am not sure that this is a huge factor

I continue to see nice growth especially from the montis

I am now looking into a calcium reactor

Any thoughts appreciated

[oct2274]

i'm not sure why no one has mentioned this, but there is a great calculator that will tell you exactly how much to use and the max amount you should use per day till you get to the levels you want to be at..............

http://home.comcast.net/~jdieck1/chem_calc3.html

that'll make things much easier and you won't be guessing anymore

you might have a bad calcium kit if you are only seeing 370 calcium on reefcrystals mixed to 1.026 or whatever you are measuring salinity with is off and in reality you are mixing to a value that is less then 1.026

[MO Will]

I use that calculator to correct imbalances and the levels seem to respond appropriately

The main concern is the amount of two part required

WIll

[oct2274]

take your water into a local fish store that can test calcium and verify that your kit matches theirs, like i said above, a 370 calcium measurement is low for reef crystals at 1.026

[Mike O'Brien]

I'd have to say that you are making a lot of sand. I have a 58 with 12 stony corals and I only use 30 ml of B-ionic a day.

IMO it's the combination of the limewater and the super high dose of the two part that is causing precipitation. With the two part alone, that's a rise in calcium of 160 ppm and a 3 meq/l rise in alkalinity. There is no way that your corals are using that much.

[MO Will]

I guess I will buy another test kit

I am currently using Salifert and thought that was pretty accurate

There is another thread here that suggests that some have had a problem with low calcium using RC

I measure SG with a refractometer

My problem is that if I decrease the amount I am dosing - the calcium will drop to 300 in a week

[Mike O'Brien]

You might want to try stopping the limewater and just using the two part. Cut the dose way back. I think you might find that you can get by with 100 ml or so.

Also if you bake the baking soda, you might try it straight out of the box.

[MO Will]

Why is the combination of two part and limewater a problem?

[Mike O'Brien]

Mainly because the pH. It does tend to precipitate more easily than other types of additives. Also if your alkalinity kit is reading high, that will cause the precipitation to increase as well. I once had a Tetra kit that was reading about 3 dKH too high. I was trying to keep my tank at 10 dKH, and ended up having to use twice the ammount of suppliment that I do now. It's really easy to overdose without being able to tell with test kits. It's a self limiting process. You should be able to run the tank with the right paramaters and not have any abiotic precipitation. My friend Mark has a 90 with fabulous growth of SPS corals and he's never had to clean his return pump in the three years it's been running. To me that says that he does not overdose Calcium and Alkalinity.

[rwessels]

Sounds like your Mag is too low. I was never able to keep my tank high enough on Ca and Alk with a huge Ca and dosing 2 part. After fixing my mag problem - by adding HUGE amounts of Mag, the reactor was more than able to keep up.

[oct2274]

in his first post he said that he keeps his mag at around 1400, again this would be good to have tested by a local store to verify it matches his kit.

[robsee06]

Magnesium should be between 1280 and 1320...

A couple of observations on your posts...

If you have ANY (this means ANY) precipitate forming in your tank you are overdosing something...period. You mentioned "noticeable less" precipitate. There should be no precipitate whatsoever.

If you are dosing 700 ml of Ca and 700 ml of Alk you are WAY, WAY, WAY overdosing (hence the precipitate)...stop doing this.

You are most likely mixing the chemistry incorrectly or testing incorrectly. There is a smoking gun in your procedures for sure. Maybe find a local club or experienced reefer and show them what you are doing. Unknowingly you are making an error somewhere.

[MO Will]

I tested this PM

pH 8.2 (pH probe)

Calcium 400 (salifert)

Alk 7.6 (lamotte)

Mg 1470 (salifert)

At one point I did have quite a bit of abiotic precipitation

I had not checked or dosed Mg in several months and the level was < 1150

After adding gallons of Mg (Randy's recipe) over several weeks I now can maintain Mg in the 1400-1500 range

I don't see much abiotic precipitation of calcium at all - just a little bit on the heaters

I turned down the dose of two part from 700 mL/day to 200 mL/day

I will check again soon

I have about 15-20 SPS in the tank

[Fraggle Rock2]

I'd test the stock solutions to make sure you made them correctly or what was sent to you is what it was supposed to be.

Otherwise, you are likely getting precipitation. Do you does them together? or at separate times?

Also, how big are your water changes? What salt? and Do you up the Ca/Alk in your new salt water before the change if necessary?

[Billybeau1]

Mo, just read this entire thread for the first time. Too many suggestions and not enough solutions IMO. Everyones an expert. I know everyone is trying to help but sometimes too many questions can confuse the real issue at hand.

How does your sps look?

I don't think your alk is as low as your lamotte is saying. I'd get a second opinion on your alkalinity level.

Lets reset and start over and see if we can nail this thing down.

[MO Will]

Thanks for all the replies to date

Update: I turned down the two part dosing 72 hours ago from 700 mL/day to 200 mL/day

I just checked my parameters

SG 1.026

pH 8.2

Alk 6.4 Lamotte

Ca 350 (Salifert)

Haven't had a chance to buy a second test kit

By JDieck's calculator I would have to add 769 mL to restore the calcium to 400

My SPS look good. Many are visibly growing

Appreciate the replies

[Billybeau1]

Mo, I think you have test kit problems.

I believe your alkalinity is higher than you think (especially with a pH of 8.2). I recently purchased one of the inexpensive Lamotte alk kits (about 23 bucks) and it read extremely low in my testing.

I tend to believe your calcium test but am unsure why you are reading low and why you are using so much 2-part. Seems excessive to me. Could be a lot of things.

The fact that your tank looks good is a good thing. That means no hurry.

You might try not dosing anything for a couple of days and retesting.

You might be surprised how little your calcium drops.

See if you can pick up another brand alk kit to compare. API's are cheap and pretty accurate.

Then we'll go from there.

[breeze]

As Billy said, I would get a new alk and calcium test kits of a different brand. I would bet that is your problem.

I was having the same problem. Could not keep my calcium and alk up. Kept dosing and they would be ok, then would drop over several days like yours. Turns out when I bought a new calcium and alk test kit, my calcium with Seachem was reading 360, with a new Red sea it was 525. With Salifert Alk, 3.7meq/L, with a new Instant ocean, 2.5meq/ml. Once I corrected these everything stabilized, my Calcium is now 425 and my alk is 3.5 and solid. I dose 3x weekly now and all my SPS are growing well, and no abiotic precipitation

[NewBostonConst]

FYI, if you buy a Salifert Strontium kit the first part of the strontium test re-does ca. Thus you get 2 kits in one and you can verify each kit against the other kit that way.

[Zedar]

Mo I guess I'm the first person to respond that can offer you advice based on experience.

I had the exact same problem !! EXACTLY the same!!!

It was the KALK !!!

Once I stopped the Kalk reactor the parameters came inline.

No more precipitate. No more wild swings in calcium. My calcium would go from 450 to 300 in one day!!

Stop the KALK !!!

Adjust your calc and alk per randys advice. In otherwords get them balanced.
DON'T use baked baking soda for the onetime adjustment. Make a gallon of baking soda for this purpose. The baked soda will raise the PH and cause abiotic precipitation. Another lesson I had to learn the hard way.

Once they're balanced, start a drip thats more inline with your tanks requirements. Say 150 ml 200 ml per day. Monitor that for a few days and find your requirements from there.

I dose 300 ml per day in a 65 but I have a huge head of frogspawn (as in soccer ball sized) and 10 sps.


I am dosing kalk again, but Ive learned my lesson. Its dripped at a VERY VERY slow rate.

The combination of KALK dripped too fast and the 2 part dosing was causing all the problems. Im sure its your problem too.

Good Luck!!!

[MO Will]

Zedar

Thanks for the input

I ordered new test kits and I am waiting for them to come in

I will post when I have more information

[jdieck]

600 ml of recipe 1 in 60 gal of water will add 14 dKh per day!
Most overdosing I have seen is due to trying to catch up to precipitation and most precipitation tends to occur when using supplements that increase PH like Limewater in conjunction with recipe 1 were both increase PH thus increasing the precipitation thus decreasing the levels thus forcing you to add more.

Just stop dosing the two part for a couple of days, measure your alkalinity drop within those 48 hours. (measure when stop and 48 hours later) Use the calculator to determine how much volume of recipe you need to compensate the 48 hour drop, divide it by two and set the volume in the litermeter for a 24 hour addition.

As a reference, on a heavy loaded 60 gal system tank the alkalinity requirement would be between 3 and 4 dKh per day. With 1.5% to 2% evaporation replaced daily (0.9 to 1.2 gallons) with saturated lime water the limewater will add between 1.7 to 2.3 dKh. to add the missing 1.1 to 1.7 dKh the amount of extra recipe 1 needed will be between 50 to 75 ml/day (100 to 150 ml/day recipe 2) of each part so anything above 100 ml/day of recipe 1 (200 ml/day recipe 2) may be too much.

To reduce the precipitation you can replace the recipe 1 for recipe 2, besides being half the strength it will not increase (rather slightly decrease) the PH thus reducing the likelihood of precipitation.

So to simplify:
a) Stop adding two part and measure the alkalinity drop
b) Switch to recipe 2 (using sodium bicarbonate rather than carbonate)
c) Adjust addition to match the calculated drop using the reef chem calculator to determine the required amount.
http://reef.diesyst.com/chemcalc/chem_calc3.html

[shikhyung]

He has mentioned that the sum is 150gal, so his total volume must be way above 100gal. Shin.

[jdieck]

Originally posted by shikhyung
He has mentioned that the sum is 150gal, so his total volume must be way above 100gal. Shin.

You are right! Although I looked and could not find his volume I went by the signature that mantions a main of 58 RR but I should have been hinted by the coment:

"By JDieck's calculator I would have to add 769 mL to restore the calcium to 400"

Which will require 150 gallon system.

[jdieck]

Originally posted by MO Will
Thanks for all the replies to date

Update: I turned down the two part dosing 72 hours ago from 700 mL/day to 200 mL/day

I just checked my parameters

SG 1.026

pH 8.2

Alk 6.4 Lamotte

Ca 350 (Salifert)

Haven't had a chance to buy a second test kit

By JDieck's calculator I would have to add 769 mL to restore the calcium to 400

My SPS look good. Many are visibly growing

Appreciate the replies

MO Will:

Although there was a drop of 50 ppm in Calcium, there was only a drop of 1.2 dKh in alkalinity over three days. With this drop in Alkalinity the calcium should have dropped only 9 ppm
This show a potential testing error which I would guess is on the calcium side as IME Ca kits have more variability that Alkalinity kits.
(Side Note: I am assuming your LaMotte measures in ppm alkalinity so you are converting to dKh using 17.86 ppm per dKh)

If the alkalinity is right you are only missing about 40 ml/day of recipe. Try using 250 ml/day and watch it over a week's period.

If need to be adjust calcium or alkalinity independently using only the corresponding part.