Refugium tips (formerly "flow rate thorugh a refugium")

[outy]

i have a 50 g sump for a 100G softie and sps tank,i put in a devider to help with keeping raw water and water level to my skimmer [thanks Anthony] got the idea here [not done yet with tweaks]. I just put in another divider to keep my mag9.5 in. my sumps in my basement and ive got about 800gph flowing through. i will get chaeto i wonder about sand depth and with that i have some free live sand [in the bag] would it be better to go to a DSB or use the so called bagged live sand.

thanks for your input Anthony i have better nutrient export now

[Anthony Calfo]

I don't regard the bag "live" sand as being particularly live.

I'm sure that you will get much more life forms from live sand harvested form the ocean or even another aquarists mature/established tank.

[poopsko24]

Anthony, can't wait to get youre new posters, ordered them the other day. I'm trying to come up w/ a good fix for my tank/ refug. I have a 170 custom. I want to make my fuge out of a 29. Already have a seperate sump going. Now the 29 will fit behind my display on the floor. The display is on a 33" stand. I already have both my 1 1/2" drains feeding my euroreef skimmer section and think its best left at that. Now I have a gen X 1090 gph pump for my return. The 29 gal. fuge is already drilled on in the front uppermost part to accept a 1" bulkhead w/ screen to drain back into my sump/return section. What is the best way to feed and deliver it to my fuge ? I think that my only left option would be to tee off my return (which would'nt be so bad) If I'm going to have a 3/4" line for my return off of my 1090 gph return pump should I tee it off to the fuge ? Then the fuge drains back to the return pump section of the sump. My other question is if I tee it off to the fuge then at what point on the fuge should the exit nozzle of the return be at ? Or should I have a spraybar there? or 90 it right across the waters surface or submerged ? thanx alot.

[poopsko24]

Oh, I forgot to mention that I want to grow chateo in the fuge and was thinking about a DSB in the fuge ......yes or no on the DSB. Or should I just do the chateo.???

[Anthony Calfo]

I agree on the tee of the return pump... this is tidy and usually works very fine.

Add the DSB if you think you need nitrate control. Maybe some more worms or fine zooplankton. Else no worries... keep it simple/empty for the Chaeto ball to tumble.

[poopsko24]

ok, that said how should i have my outlet going into the fuge ? Should I have an 90 degree elbow just blowing across the top of the water ? Or should I submerge it ? Or is a spraybar across the top of the water surface better than the single 90 degree elbow ? thanx Anthony

[Anthony Calfo]

as per earlier chats in this thread... a splash lip just below the surface.

[poopsko24]

I would do a splash lip , but I'm not overflowing into the fuge like that... I'm going to be flowing right into it w/ a 90 degree elbow , do you think i should do a splash lip and just not put a 90 on there and have it just be a the pvc pipe hitting a splash lip instead?

[Anthony Calfo]

I do/most always like the splash lip for creating rolling water flow patterns.

[cabbagehead]

This forum is great. Can't belive I waited a year to come here
Does this setup look ok? Or should I change the supply side of the sump to include a piece of plexi to direct water flow? Thanks

[Anthony Calfo]

if I understand your diagream correctly (shouldn't the arrow on the far right side/section be pointing upwards as the sump return?), then your sump proper is waaaaay too small for safe running here.

Even with a very precise evaporation top-off system... you will be cutting this close. Without auto-evap top off, you will be a slave to evap and likely burn out some pumps!

As for the baffle on the left side from the first (skimmer?) chamber... it really is not needed if your flow is appropriately slow enough through this sump (it cannot be too high for noice and microbubble concerns... leave the bulk of the flow needs/duty up top on a closed loop or in display pumps).

I do think you would be better served with a submerged refugium spillway/lip at least to get the rolling water flow pattern we have talked about in this thread (assuming you'll keep the typical macroalgae species).

Incorporating a refugium into a sump in such downstream applications (as opposed to my preferred upstream - above sump or next to/above display) is one of their greatest limitations.

And... welcome to the forum, my friend Thanks for peeking in

[barryhc]

Anthony, I've been researching for a sump/refugium, that I'm designing now to DIY for a couple of months now. I read this entire thread today, very very informative!

My display tank for this is a 27 gal. hex, with 6" of sand and gravel ( 1 1/2" of 1-2mm arag. at the surface ), and lots ( about 35 #'s ) of live rock.

The design as of now, is a 30x18x18 ( 42 gal. ) which is intended to be divided into 3 compartments:

> 15 gal. secondary display

> 10 gal. refugium

> 10 gal. of sump ( several compartments, overflows etc. )

I understand you're not a big fan of "combined sump/refugium" setups, but the whole thing has to sit out in the open, I need ( and want ) the extra display space for compatability issues, plus the 27 is "quite full".

My current set-up uses an overflow to a 16 gal. walmart tub, 450 gph ( "head rated" ) return with anti siphon holes, which only drains 1/2 gal. at power-off.

I understand how to handle the mechanical issues here, but here are the paramaters and questions.

The main tank has about 18 gal. of actual water. The new secondary display will be about 12 gal. actual water, and the refugium portion will be about 8 gal. of actual water.

That means about 30 gal. of display water to 8 gal. of "fuge" water ( or about 25% ). At 450 gph, thats 56 times the "fuge" volume per hour, 25 times the main display volume per hour, and 37 times the secondary display volume per hour.

>All the animals are happy now with the 25 times per hour in the main display, but what about that 56 times in the "fuge"?

I'm looking to grow Chaeto most likely, and hopefully lots of little "feeder critters".

The main display is handling itself pretty well in terms of nitrate already( it is rather heavily stocked ) at less than 2ppm, and Phosphate has finally dropped to less than 1 ppm and is on its
way down. I will probably run several inches of sand-gravel in the secondary display, so it should nearly handle itself in terms of nutrients.

>I can cut down the flow rate pretty easy in the fuge, while I'm still designing if need be. Should I?

What sand, gravel, mud, you name it, is appropriate in the refugium, if I'm looking to grow macro for export, and "critters" to feed?

Are there any caveats here that you see me falling into?

Thanks, barryhc

[barryhc]

Anthony, please apply this information to the post directly above.

Quote from Anthony:
my workhorse is my (second) Chaetomorpha refugium: growing fast, being harvested (nutrient export and providing a fab matrix for micrococrustaceans in the process

>>I think this is the same function I'm looking for. Keep in mind, that the fuge is directly behind the secondary display and will not be seperated from light. I will be running an "opposite" lighting schedule, of probably 12 on, 12 off? ( between the primary display, and secondary "display-fuge") Is the 12-12 photoperiod problematic for this type of fuge?

I got the part about flow being good in most cases at a nominal
value of 20 X "fuge" volume. Is there a high border for flow that will affect the "microcrustaceans matrix", and about that matrix?

Thanks for being here, it is a blessing. > barryhc

[cidory]

This new 38 gallon sump will sit under my 50, comments welcomed.
[IMG][/IMG]

[Anthony Calfo]

really no such thing as too much flow, for microcrustaceans... or really most any other creatures practically kept.

The calmest reef you will ever see is still staggeringly more dynamic than the most turbulent aquarium. The real issue with "too much flow" is the application (direction... as in too linear/laminar) and not the (high) volume. It is the very focussed linear flow pattern such as with powerheads and pump nozzles that is so very awful and unnatural for many reef creatures if unmodified in aquaria.

So by providing the wide rolling (indeed laminar but diffused) flow as with a tumbing chaeto ball... or the fab turbulence of a multi-tee manifold like some do on displays, we can sufficiently diffuse water flow while still enjoying high volume.

As far as the 12/12 photoperiod... it is a must! One of the biggest mistruths in aquarium algae culture is that all or many species can endure an uninterrupted 24hr photoperiod. Not true! Not even close. Most will suffer and dwindle in time without adequate time (night) for respiration. Among commonly available plant and algae species... only some Caulerpa will live well in stasis with constant illumination.

Really... the majority of marine plants and algae will thrive, if not need(!), a proper and natural day/night photoperiod 12/12 is fine with most lamps. Focus more on finding warm coilored lights of high PAR value.

[barryhc]

Thanks Anthony, that sets me up nicely, for flow, mine will be well diffused, with an option to "roll" the flow in that chamber, as well.

I have followed your flow-lip technique, and that is the "option". The standard flow at about 50 "times", when fully "dispersed", is still only 8mm per second, of velocity, which is almost "miniscule".

Could you offer some advice or info. on the substrate to use, with the primary objective being the production of "food critters", and where macro algae will be promoted, but is secondary to ( or even in support of ) the "critter production".

Thanks again, > barryhc

[Anthony Calfo]

I'm not a big fan of substrates in the sump proper for critter production. I much rather prefer a suspended matrix like the Chaeto ball or spaced polyester filter pads (on a string to act as a pod condo).

Fine (<1 mm) sand for a DSB for NNR (see DSB bucket thread stickied atop this forum) is good. But beyond that... I am not a fan of placing rubble, live rock or coarse sand in the sump. In most cases, it accumulates/traps more solids than its worth (for pods).

[barryhc]

Originally posted by Anthony Calfo
I'm not a big fan of substrates in the sump proper for critter production. I much rather prefer a suspended matrix like the Chaeto ball or spaced polyester filter pads (on a string to act as a pod condo).

Fine (<1 mm) sand for a DSB for NNR (see DSB bucket thread stickied atop this forum) is good. But beyond that... I am not a fan of placing rubble, live rock or coarse sand in the sump. In most cases, it accumulates/traps more solids than its worth (for pods).

Ok, so would a 1 1/2" to 2" depth of <1mm, be adequate, and is there a "micron equivalent" or "otherwise" description of the filter pads that would work well. I am guessing that a fairly coarse pad would work well, and maybe 1/2' to 1" thick?

Also, to sort of "finish" here, a reccomendation for what are good critters for "feeding" would be exceedingly helpful here. I would like to support sand bed types of animals, such as jaw-fish, gobies, mandarin, gobies, etc. primarily. I think I can feed other types of fish adequately, in most cases, without growing their food.

Thanks again Anthony, I'm "almost on my way". > barryhc

[Bemmer]

Anthony,
Along the same lines as Barryhc as it relates to live food/pods, I have been told that it is best to return the water from the refugium directly back into the main tank, if possible. That is to avoid having the pods go through the return pumps running from the sump. But if that is not possible, as in my case, where the refugium return is gravity feed back to the sump, will I loss alot of pods because of the impellers on the pumps or is that a myth?

[barryhc]

Originally posted by Bemmer
Anthony,
Along the same lines as Barryhc as it relates to live food/pods, I have been told that it is best to return the water from the refugium directly back into the main tank, if possible. That is to avoid having the pods go through the return pumps running from the sump. But if that is not possible, as in my case, where the refugium return is gravity feed back to the sump, will I loss alot of pods because of the impellers on the pumps or is that a myth?

I can answer this one Bemmer, it is primarily a myth. A needle wheel type of pump MIGHT cause a bit more trouble, if at all, but it is unnecessary to have this type of pump in your return.

Check with Anthony on this one, but I think, that a skimmer in the return path would be a bigger disadvantage, and I don't know of anyone promoting this.

Happy reef keeping, > barryhc

[Anthony Calfo]

the issue of impeller shear (on plankton) is a bunk myth. Really... of very little matter or consequence. The studies on it were bunk (used Artemia!) and the practical reality is quite different: most plankton passes through just fine... and what doesn't is just as edible on the other side

Do not worry about impeller shear on pods.

[Bemmer]

Thanks guys, I can sleep better tonight knowing that my pods will be alright "on the other side". Wink right back at ya'

Another one...I am thinking of putting my calcium reactor (made by MyReefCreation) in the sump since I have the room. Andy, at MyReef said that it would be good to drip the calcium from the calcium reactor into the refugium tank (separate from the sump). Is there a real advantage to this? Enough to consider putting the calcium reactor on a shelf closer to the refugium tank instead of in the sump.

I can do either since I am still in the setup stage.

Thanks

[Anthony Calfo]

No harm... some help perhaps. At least in the sense that you do not want to drip your effluent from the Ca reactor into any high aeration/flow areas. Refugiums traditionally are not as dynamic as sumps or displays... so this may well be a fine place to drip.

Andy at MRC is a wise chap too... good advice.

[Bemmer]

Anthony,
So, I should strongly consider putting the calcium reactor closer to the refugium tank, which is sitting 37"h on a stand and is 6 1/2 feet from the sump. I have it up high for the obvious gravity feed back to the sump. Can I mount the MRC cal. reactor on the wall up close to the refugium? Will there be any issues with plumbing it into the main pump (Sequence Hammerhead), which will be much lower to the ground? Or is it best for the reactor to be sitting on the ground next to the sump?

[Bemmer]

Anthony,
A second question for you...
As you may have read in my last post on this thread, I have a seperate refugium tank (36 x 24 x 13H), which will have the DSB and live rock. The way I am designing my sump, I will have a center section between the sump area and the return that will not have anything in it. (That is assuming that I may have the calcium reactor up near the refugium tank to drip the calcium into the tank). With the open section in the sump, can I put a big ball of Cheato in the sump and then run the refugium return pipe into that same open section instead of into the skimmer section?