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#26
05/16/2007, 07:15 PM
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I had a bad outbreak of ich and after asking the same questions, decided to just do regular water changes and let the situation ride itself out. Well, my tank doesn't have anymore ich but I had a pair of Onyx clowns, a rhomboid wrasse, pink margin wrasse, scooter blenny, clown fish, and a balteatus wrasse perish. The funny thing is that the blue tang, the guy who started it all, ended up making it and is thriving in my tank. I think having a QT tank is definitely the way to go, even if it means breaking your tank down.
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#27
05/16/2007, 07:28 PM
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Just curious, you said you added a fish into your tank that caused the outbreak. What fish was it? Is that fish fighting with any of your current fish? I hate to say it, but sometimes you can try all those things and some fish just don't make it. Again, keep in mind that everyone's tank is different.
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#28
05/16/2007, 07:35 PM
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It was a maroon clown pair. The little male ended in the sump two days after (he was tiny) and the female broke out in ich and maybe brooklynella. So i returned her to the store for credit. I havent seen any signs of brook in my other fish but im afarid it might be there thats why i wanted to do copper.
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#29
05/16/2007, 07:41 PM
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Quote:
This goes to the heart of what I'm trying to relay to you: whether you see it or not, ich can be present in your tank. I'll qualify it with *can* if you prefer, but for all practical purposes, just assume that it is. Your maroon may have introduced ich, or it could well have been present in your tank for a year and the introduction of the maroon could have stressed the others enough that they fell susceptable to it. That's what I classified it as a symptom. See, here you are going through all these things to "cure" something that is analogous to people "curing" germs on their skin. We realize that coughing, sneezing, and snotty noses are "symptoms" of the common cold. Now is the cold a "problem" as well? Yes, while recognizing that there is no cure or preventive measure to make other than keeping one's immune system up to snuff. OR an antiseptic environment. It's true that you can remove all the fish from your tank, let the ich go through it's natural life cycle, find no hosts and die, and treat the QT tank simultaneously and hope that you can eradicate the parasites from your fish. Of course, the parasites are at different stages of their life cycles, so completely eradicating them can be difficult since it only takes one to reinfect the whole tank. Then if you QT'ed all new things before introducing them into your tank, you might be able to retain an antiseptic (ich free) environment. But at what cost? And at what point do you start to consider diminishing returns? Because rather than walk around with an oxygen mask and alcohol swabs, I choose to wash my hands and eat well. And that suffices to keep me reasonably safe from everpresent germs on my skin...the same can be said for your fish. If you start to look at this problem from my POV, rather than analyze it from a theoretical perspective, you would have done some things differently that might well have saved your previous 5 fish (and I don't know what those were, but I thought your tank load was reasonable before I knew that 5 previous inhabitants were also in that list). As we discuss, little things are creeping out. I'm by no means an expert, but I do have experience. Here is what I think of it all: rather than trying to "solve" the problem of ich, and buying anything the local stores threw at you (similar to rows and rows of common cold medicines in our grocery stores), the very first thing you should have done was check your water parameters. Even if the maroon was the cause of the ich infestation (and I don't think it was...neither of us have any reasonable or scientific reasons to believe so whether you agree with my analysis or not about what to do about ich), healthy and unstressed fish would have never exhibited signs of it. Here's the point of what I'm saying: If you keep thinking of ich as the problem, then your cures will not address the underlying issues and you will either not ultimately fix the problem or actually make the matter worse. If you had thought of the problem as stress then you would have realized that some of the things you are proposing will make matters worse. Putting all those fish in a bare 20 gallon tank will stress them out more, which will make the ich outbreak worse. I keep going back to the cold analogy because it works so well...the only known "cure" for the common cold is rest and relaxation. I don't envy your situation...anything you do at this point is a non winner. You'll just need to move slow and pinch off a good chunk of luck if you're infested as badly as it sounds. What I should have said to be more clear was: ich does not present itself on normal healthy individuals. that's what I meant by it not being the problem. Ich is something that you might or might not be able to solve in the sense of eradicating it from your aquariums life. But you can help to ensure that no one suffers from it. I didn't mean to come off rude, and I certainly don't mean to be implying to ignore ich when you see an infestation. But I do want to warn you not to search for a silver bullet...that will create a false sense of security. Let's start at step 2: check your params (check one being to QT *anything* that goes *into* your tank, which I'm sure you will do at least your livestock from now on  )
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#30
05/16/2007, 07:45 PM
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Quote:
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#31
05/16/2007, 08:07 PM
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Mope i really dont understand why you insist on saying that my ich was caused by bad water quality. My water has been in check for a long time and i do Salifert tests at least once a week. I have a pinpoint ph probe and a refractometer. An even if my water parameters were bad if i didnt have the parasite in the tank that wouldnt have brought to an ich outbreak would it ?
Ich did not exist in my tank before the clowns because it was a brand new tank. I know that the clowns had ich because when i went to return my surviving female to the store the other pair they had there werent in top shape and did eventually develop ich. I do understand that it seems like a futile job to quarantine everything like that (your analogy of a sterile environment), but all other methods have been unsuccesful so far. Just go along with me here and accept that my water parameters are in check just for the sake of argument  You also suggest to qt all new arrivals from now on,..i dont understand the point of that (apart from other diseases) if i already have ich in the tank. Although it seems futile, from all my reading it seems that a lot of people agree that having an ich free tank is possible. Just go for a spin on the disease forum. Listen i am here at this point debating the toughest measure (hospital tank) because i did try everything else, except for ginger and ozone. I dont like it and sure as hell would prefer the little guys to make it on their own. Its just not happening though. Last time i checked from memory amonia 0 nitrite 0 nitrate 30 alk 9 or 10 salinity 1.026, temp 78-80, deltec apf600 skimming wet, 40 gallon sump with chaeto bulging, 40 watt UV running at 120 gph (i think at about 500 kill rate while ich is around 420 if i remember correctly). rykwong: everything gets ick. Tang are more susceptible to it. Until yesterday my two chromis were doing fine and showing no signs. They still dont show signs but i saw one yesterday scratching against the nori clip. The little maroon was just to weak from the sickness and got pulled in. |
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#32
05/16/2007, 08:20 PM
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I'm not saying that poor water quality caused ich.
I'm saying that stress causes outbreaks of ich. Poor water quality is one stressor...just easy to rule it out first. Aggression is another stressor, and it's highly likely that your maroons stressed everyone out enough to exhibit symptoms of ich. All, one, or none of your livestock could have had ich. Your liverock could have had ich. You would never had known had your fish remained healthy and unstressed...you would have never seen the symptoms. That doesn't mean the maroons brought it into the tank...although they could have. My point of QT everything from now on is if you want to do what you claim: that you will remove all fish, let the tank go through a full life cycle fully eradicating the parasites, waiting for a full life cycle in the QT tank, and then and only then you can QT every single thing...every grain of sand, coral, LR, crustacean for at least 6 weeks before putting it in the tank. I've never known anyone to do that, which is why I suggest you're better off assuming your tank has ich and move from there. |
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#33
05/16/2007, 08:41 PM
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I am responding to Mac Inger's private message requesting that I respond to this thread. I am assuming that you have the correct diagnosis. Reading the series of five articles that I wrote for Advanced Aquarist online magazine will probably answer most of the questions. The short answer is to go with hyposalinity therapy in a quarantine tank for 30 days. Use a refractometer to accurately measure the salinity (not the Specific Gravity) and keep it at 14ppt. Monitor the alkalinity closely in treatment and add a buffer as needed to keep the pH up. All exposed fish must be treated and the display left fishless for a minimum of thirty days.
Terry B
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Knowledge first. A large water change can cover a multitude of sins against your aquarium. |
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#34
05/16/2007, 08:41 PM
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To go back to your analogy :
If i am sitting in an office with 4 people that have the flu. I will get the flu. If i have a strong immune system maybe ill get a bit of a flue or ill get it later, but i will get it. If there is no one with flu in the office then i shouldnt get it no matter how much the boss makes my life miserable : ) I do understand what you are saying, thinking of qt'ing everything for 6 weeks before it goes in the tank sounds pretty unreasonable. And i wouldnt like to do it. Takes a lot of the fun out of the hobby. But what else is there to be done ? Why do so many people talk about copper and hyposalinity? Are all of them theorising ? If we agree on your assumptions, then every single tank must have ich,...since we do get livestock, rock, sand and so on from different sources. Why do some people never have outbreaks ? Just poor water quality can not be the culprit. Just thinking out loud. My case sounds pretty extreme thats why my initial idea of doing copper or hypo. No one here in the socal forums ever did hypo or copper ? I thought it was a widespread practice at least from reading through posts and papers.....or is it more just said and written about since its a proven method but then apart from the testing/scientific community no one really practices it ? |
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#36
05/16/2007, 09:10 PM
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Quote:
You returned your ich infested female maroon to the LFS? Do you think they QT'ed her or tossed her in a for sale tank? If their tanks are plumbed together... I never said or implied poor water quality was the culprit. I understand that fish have to be exposed to ich, it doesn't just pop out of nowhere. But you didn't QT your fish...and then you assume that since you didn't see it that you were only infected by the maroon. That may or may not be true. I tried to be clear that ich is everpresent in tanks as a pragmatic issue...not as a scientific one. OK, it's not in all tanks all of the time. But it's the *rare* hobbyist who properly QT's his or her livestock before introduction...are you going to be that person now? In that case, you will probably have an ich free tank...one of the few. But you weren't doing so before... Last edited by mope54; 05/16/2007 at 09:17 PM. |
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#37
05/16/2007, 09:18 PM
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I have read this entire thread carefully twice and I just have one quick question for Mac Inger. It is a fact that ich can be in a tank and you don't see it. There is a big difference between having ick in your tank and having an outbreak of ick. I may be wrong but it seems you may be assuming that because you did not see it till you introduced the maroon pair, it was not there.
Even if it is a brand new tank, the livestock is not brand new. You could quite easily have had ick all along and only had an infestation after the maroons were introduced, whether the maroons brought some in or just stressed out the other fish enough to cause pre existing ick to manifest. I have had one of my systems going for 7 years and every other week I will see spots of ick on some of the fish but it usually goes away just as fast as it appeared. I know I have ick in that tank but I have not lost any fish in that tank from ick in the past 7 years. One or 2 wrasses jumped out but that has been the only cause of death so far. When I did get ick in my fish only tank(which had been neglected for a while in favour of the reef), I found the hypo treatment worked quite well. The thought of the possibility of copper hanging around in your system for months or years scared me too much to use it |
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#38
05/16/2007, 09:39 PM
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After my PB tang developed Ich I simply let my ozonizer do the work for me. Many reefers avoid the use of ozone for one reason or another but it remains nonetheless a very viable form of pathogenic control/eradication when used properly. It is so effective at ich eradication (yes, ich has been eradicated from my tank contrary to popular opinion and misconceptions that ich persists and is everpresent) that you need only dose the minimum. On my 240g, which has 9 large tangs among other fish, I have the 200 mg Red Sea deluxe model dosing ozone at 50 mg's with my ORP set at 400. Not only was the Ich eradicated fairly quickly but I have yet to ever see it re-appear, which is what I base my aforementioned comment on. And yes, my water parameters were always consistent, including temperature. It is a fact that the PB tang introduced it into my system. If I were you, and this is just my opinion, I'd get myself an ozonizer and dispense with all this grief.
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Beware the lollipop of mediocrity - one lick and you suck forever |
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#39
05/16/2007, 10:45 PM
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Its just hard for me to believe that ich is in 90some percent of the tanks out there, but if thats the general consensus, then who am i to go against the grain.
I am fairly sure the ich was not in my tank before the clowns. From what i understand the time ich itself is off the fish is pretty short. If its not showing itself externally then it means its in the gills of the fish. I have seen what that looks like and you can see the fish twitching and shaking its head. Plus thats the scratching on rocks. The overwhelming majority seems to be pro leaving them deal with it. I will do that then for the time being (considering i have to go a few days out of town a couple of times this month,..might not be the best time for hospital). I will though try the ginger, upping my water changes and look into the ozoniser. thanks all for sharing your thoughts and by all means if anybody feels like they want to contribute im all ears. We are all tired of the ich subject i know, but its a problem...especially to me right now
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