Refugium tips (formerly "flow rate thorugh a refugium")

[thrlride]

When you say 20x's turnover in the fuge, is that 20 times the total volume of the whole system or 20 times the volume of the fuge? I am designing my plumbing system now.

[sfsuphysics]

Fishdoc, I think that bulb Melev uses is great. Now I haven't used it myself, but it fits the bill of everything you want, its intense (65 watts wasn't it, and they're "better" better watts too! More efficient ones than the watts per gallon rule, btw Anthony I hate those rules as well ), it's compact (no 2-4 foot bulbs here), its focused (you point the light where you want it doesn't shine all over the place), it doesn't require anything overly special (a standard plug for bulbs, no ballasts, no endcaps, no worries about matching up exact bulbs), and its good price for the length the bulb lasts (CF bulbs have a life time of 5+ years, note: I'm unsure how the color spectrum works over this time line).

All this talk of flow, surge, etc has gotten me to rethink my future tank setup now and has actually given me a bit of an idea. I was toying with the idea of using a skimmerbox inside my show tank (135g) and pulling a siphon straight to my macro-tank (50g) without the need for an outside overflow box, since the other tank itself would essentially be that outside box and keep the flow regulated, unfortunately that tank on the stand I got (free tank + cheap $20 stand) is about 10" lower than the show tank that idea went out the window. Although I have been toying with putting it up on blocks to raise it, it just would look to ghetto. Now with this surge idea, I might have the perfect solution, siphon all the overflow to surge box/bucket/tank (whatever I get my hands on) the surge itself would prevent oversiphoning from occuring (just like the outside overflow box does), and then instead of putting a steady current into the macro tank (ie refugium) it would surge it when the surge filled to the trigger point.

The benifit of this is I get my surge action, the same amount of flow is still occuring just with breaks inbetween (which could actually be benificial), and best of all malfunctions are no longer an issue, since if for whatever reason the surge flapper (or whatever mechnism I go with) fails the surge won't overflow since it'll stop when it reaches the level of the show tank, or if the flapper doesn't go down, then I have a standard overflow (of course if the return pump fails there could be issues). Best of all, no need for an additional pump to fill the surge.

Anyways sorry to sidetrack, just had some musings I wanted to share, if anyone is interested in a diagram I'll whip one up later, now I gotta go to work though. Man I love this thread

[Anthony Calfo]

Chris... in your case, a quick and easy fix to get this Chaeto tumbling would be to:
- keep the refugium vessel free of any large obstructions beyond the Chaeto
-apply your water flow via something like a quickly rigged spray bar or several tees across a feed pipe. This bar is to be placed at or just slightly below the surface of the water the length of one short end wall of the aquarium (like the lip mentioned higher up in this thread). Aim this effluent water at a slightly downward angle but mostly jetting across the planar surface. This will create very simple rolling recirc of water in the tank. It really is as literal and simple as it sounds.

Anth-

[fishdoc11]

sfsuphysics,
Thanks for the reply. That's the bulb I'm using and my growth isn't that great but I'm thinking it's because of low nutrient levels. I was just wondering what kind of growth others got:-)
Chris

[Anthony Calfo]

thrlride... 20X is really just a ballpark guide. Like lighting... it needs to be adjusted/finessed on a case by case basis for the specific animals you keep... and presumes you will keep a realistic and compatible group of organisms that can actually fare well under the standardized parameters you set.

That said... the 10-20X guide is for the individual tank (display or refugium). Thus... for Chaeto in a 20 gall 'fuge... a 400gph flow (20X) is not asking a lot. Its not enough flow in many cases (like when significant particulates enter from incoming water). In such cases where aquarists get misled to use the old slow-flow recs (under 10X)... it is no wonder the refugium becomes a cess-pool of nuisance algae.

Slow flow in most any refugium (other than settling chamber styles that are actively serviced) has been one of the single biggest tidbits of "mythinformation" promoted at large in recent years. Its patently bad husbandry IMO.

Anthony

[Kc189]

My question is would 70X turn over rate be to much though a Fuge? At this point I am open to any type of Marco. I plan on having 16G fuge on a 80G tank. I was planing to put 1100gph thought the sump. Any thoughts?

Keith

[DgenR8]

Originally posted by Kc189
I was planing to put 1100gph thought the sump. Any thoughts?

Keith

I think you're going to have a hell of a time controlling micro bubbles.

[Kc189]

The sump its self will be 30lx14.5wx20t. So would you run about 800gph hour or lower?

Thanks in advance!

Keith

[fishdoc11]

Anthony,
The fuge just contains chaeto and the water comes over a baffle on one end and then goes over another one so I have a good stream across the surface. The reason I think it's not working is because the chaeto isn't floating. Would adding the lip you described but angling it slightly downward and putting it on top of the incoming water instead of below help in any way. I know it's hard to describe over the net and I aprechiate your help. I may just have to cut a piece and play with it. A spraybar really isn't practical for the setup I have. I allready have three pumps in another section of the sump and I don't want to add another.
thanks, Chris

[Anthony Calfo]

Chris... the baffles are an impediment and, even if not, diffuse the flow. You do not want to angle the lip downward either as this will break the pattern of flow. You are missing the point here my friend. Water flow needs to be focussed and horizontally shot across the surface to make this long rolling flow pattern.

Your baffle instead is nothing more than and overflowing dam. Indeed, do experiment/try this my friend... even take some clamps and a strip of plastic and rig up a small temporary lip to the overflow side of that baffle. Its tough for both of us here perhaps to explain via text. bummer

do take a stab at it and holler back. Take pics too if you can

Anthony

[fishdoc11]

Thanks alot Anthony. I'll play around with it this weekend. I get what you are saying now. It's great to have you here on RC.
Chris

[Anthony Calfo]

thanks Chris... all good too

The temporary rigging of clamps will allow you to experiment with optimal lip height and depth for optimal flow.

Please do share your results

[tstone]

Anthony
I disagree with you on the grounds that we are using the fuge as not only nutrient export with chaeto but also to grow pods, mysis and other small critters that (correct me if I am wrong here) like calmer waters.

I think the slow flow is more for pod and critter health/growth.

As you put it earlier in this thread it is a highly adaptable macro. The chaeto grows well anyway with strong enough light.


In my opinion the fuge is a nursery for bio-diversity and a nutrient export tank

I think for overall health of the fuge slow flow is the way to go.

I don't think 50GPH in a 30g fuge is good but certainly 200GPH is fine.

Who cares if there is some cyano? It is consuming nutrients just like chaeto. Just siphon it off when you harvest the macro.
Just more nutrient export.

I think nutrient export is a part of the equation but bio-diversity is a building block for stability.

IMO

[tstone]

One other thought.

If you are just building an algea scrubber then the 20X turn over is a good idea.

But for a real fuge take it slow dude.

[billsreef]

Better yet, with the use of baffles and/or rubble piles you can create some nice slow flow areas for the pods et al in the high flow fuge. The best of both worlds

[tstone]

Now there's an idea. I may have to give that some thought in my latest setup

[Dag]

The links to the Borneman and Carlson surge do not work.

[tstone]

Do a search and you will find the threads.

[wayne in norway]

Perhaps if you're after maximum nutrient export you are going to sacrifice pod growth in the refugium to some extent. It seems to me the two are ultimately incompatible.
I remember seeing how much cyano a certain amount of nitrate would produce.. it was enough to convince me it wasn't a viable way to remove wastes...

[bergzy]

i have had my new 40g fuge set up for about a month now.

the original chaeto that was growing in my bucket fuge was starting to die (hooked up to my old 125g set up).

i originally had a flow of about 300g through it via a split from my main return pump. the fuge initially started growing cyano but i saw a lot of pods crawling around. tons!!!

i then placed a maxijet 1200 in there.

chaeto started to tumble as anthony clafo stated one should do.

it has more than tripledin size since then. the green has also become very dark grean with a firm crisp texture. when i put the chaeto in originally, it was light green, soft and wilted.

i just added another powerhead and plugged them both into a spare red sea wavemaster pro.

this brings the total circulation to almost 900gph or 22.5x turnover per hour. chaeto looks phenomenol.

but...the pods must be hiding or chewed up from the powerhead cuz i havent really seen any. that looks like they don't like the heavy flow.

my fuge is meant for nutrient export and not pod production as there is a sponge prefilter on the overflow to prevent stray chaeto bits from entering the main display.

with 180 pounds of lr in the main display, this should be more than enough for my mandarin goby!

[fishdoc11]

I am still decicing on whether or not to "get the ball rolling". Initially the section of my sump that the chaeto is in was intended as an area for detritus to settle out so it could be easily removed. So I am debating leaving it like it is, rolling the ball, adding a 2" layer of Southdown to reduce my NO2 reading of 0.2ppm and help process detritus or a mixture of a couple of these. Decisions, decisions, decisions.....
Chris

[bergzy]

if you ever 'get the ball rolling' , it is actually quite entertaining to watch!

[Dag]

I put my chaeto in my overflow box. It doesn't tumble but it has got lots of flow, and it grows well there.

[Anthony Calfo]

Wayne et al. have really "hit the nail on the head" so to speak: some of the things we seek to achieve in refugiums are difficult if possible to achieve to the same/highest level(s) at the same time.

Although we can enjoy numerous and simultaneous benefits from most any type of system - high/low flow, coarse/fine substrates, deep or shallow beds, lit/unlit, etc. - we really must focus on some primary goals and accept the compromises on other aspects.

You can imagine some really neat refugium styles/applications that are truly incompatible with each other: settling chamber or turf algae system? [slow versus high flow]... amphipod factory or, hmmm... spaghetti worm fetish? [coarse versus fine substrates]... Gracilaria farm or cryptic refugium [high versus low light].

Again... need to worry about a strict "rule" for flow No such rule exists.

In the case of Chaeto and Gracilaria, moderate to high flow and perhaps tumbling of the matter will not harm but likely help the colony. No more, no less

kindly,

Anthony

[fishdoc11]

Welcome back Anthony! Glad you had a good time with all the "fish nerds"...a moniker I wear proudly:-)
Chris