This hobby needs to rethink the use of Live rock? :)

Piero · #1 08/31/2004, 05:53 PM

I've come to the conclusion that paying the extra money for live rock is really unnecessary in this hobby. I think we all should rethink our reasons for using it...

After over 17 years in this hobby, I'm starting to wonder why anyone goes with live rock at all...

I've done all my existing systems with CHEAP dry rock that had the shapes I was looking for(shape is the most important part when aquascaping), then I seeded the tank with a handful of rubble from an established system...or used a couple live pieces I got from a friend's tank....and in a couple months...you'd never know the difference....Coraline alga everywhere...microfauna crawlin all over the place....the works.

I've also witnessed plenty of people over the years pay lots of money for fresh live rock, only to see it all die off and go white during the cycling process...So why are we all still using it? Just to get the small amount of bacteria and micro-fauna that MIGHT make it through the cycling process? Micro-fauna we could easily get free from friends, or for a couple bucks from the LFS?

Remember every time you buy any livestock, we are also re-seeding the system and introducing more microorganisms, microfauna, and coroline alga...and diversifying the ecosystem in the prcess.

So, when you buy live rock:
- You have to cycle it
- All the life on it dies off anyhow
- You are paying more money unnecessarily
- You are paying for water weight

For years I was hung up on getting "fresh" rock just like everyone else...but I really don't see the point....just a waste of money I think.

IMHO I think this hobby is too hung up on getting "live" rock..when people should really just be concentrating on getting dry rock, in great shapes...and just seeding the tank. I'd love to hear others' thoughts on this....

I know those with money-making interests in LR will not like to hear this...but its just my .02, and it has saved me loads of cash, and my tanks and rock looks just as good as any others...

CaliforniaDreamer · #2 08/31/2004, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Piero
I've done all my existing systems with CHEAP dry rock that had the shapes I was looking for(shape is the most important part when aquascaping), then I seeded the tank with a handful of rubble from an established system...or used a couple live pieces I got from a friend's tank....and in a couple months...you'd never know the difference....Coraline alga everywhere...microfauna crawlin all over the place....the works.

Interesting, I am always interested in NOT wasting money, more for other things like lighting. In the tanks you started this way have you noticed a difference in how long it takes for the tank to establish enough bacteria to start adding livestock? How do you start the cycle? Have you noticed a difference in how long the tank takes to mature? Do you ever use a direct seeding method like GARF grunge? Tell us more.

Piero · #3 08/31/2004, 06:17 PM

Since I have reef friends, obtaining a couple rocks to seed the tank, or a handful of gravel from the sump etc is not that difficult. More often than not thoguh, I have acess to established systems in my own home...

but if you don't already have an established reef, or did not by chance know anyone locally with an established tank, you could always get the LFS to give you some grunge from their tanks...

Often when I'm starting a new tank, I use dry rock with great shapes, then I grab a bunch of stuff from my other systems or a friend's system to seed it, including:

- bucket of water from an established tank
- some gravel or rubble
- handful of macro alga fron the refungium

The more you can get, the better. Assuming you have good water chemistry and ample calcium levels, the coraline takes off immediately...

I have not noticed any longer cycling, in fact if anything the cycling is quicker, since you are eliminating the die-off phase. Just recently I re-designed my aquascaping in my main display...

I removed a bunch of smaller boulders, and added three HUGE dry rocks, taking up 1/2 of the rock structure. Two months l;ater....it's all one beautiful, seamless, coraline-encrusted mass.

CaliforniaDreamer · #4 08/31/2004, 06:23 PM

This is exactly what we do with sand. Where do you get your base rock?

Azilla · #5 08/31/2004, 06:27 PM

pics pics pics pics

Jimbo · #6 08/31/2004, 06:30 PM

Exactly what type of rock are you using Piero? Paul B. on this board uses old asphalt chunks.

Jim

dabbler@nycap · #7 08/31/2004, 06:31 PM

Gee I wish you had posted this thread before I spent hundreds of dollars on Live Rock. I had soo much trouble cycling it it was not even funny. Watching it all turn milky white and having to remove it and scrub it and change the water. I spent soo much on this rock and the salt that it made me think why did I ever get into this hobby. I am a newbie and am still learning and I think this has to be the best post I have read yet on this forum. What I should have done was find rock that suited my aquascape and bought one live rock to seed the rest, would have been much cheaper because the live rock I ended up with was actually wothless by the time the cycle was over with. Could not get the ammonia under control for weeks, I believe it killed everything.

Piero · #8 08/31/2004, 06:34 PM

I get base rock whenever I find it....I just collect rocks over time that i like the shape of....whether from the LFS, other reefers, or whatever.

no pics now...my lights are all off..but it's not like im preaching something crazy or hard to believe....holdon and I'll post a pic tomorrow...just gotta remind me.

atvdave · #9 08/31/2004, 06:35 PM

What are your thoughts on live sand? I kinda did the same thing but I bought some live rock and mixed it with base rock. I have the base rock on the bottom and live rock on top for looks. The sand I mixed 50/50 live/dry.

Jimbo · #10 08/31/2004, 06:39 PM

Over time your rock obviously becomes live rock as it is colonized with bacteria. However initially I would submit that the bioload capacity of this dead rock is far less than a tank stocked with live rock. If you stock your tank slowly though, which you should anyway I see no problems.

However for reef purposes, I like the critter diversity that I get with live rock. Tube worms, snails, chitons, limpets, etc. That is really what it's about for me.

Jim

Heinz · #11 08/31/2004, 06:44 PM

#Often when I'm starting a new tank#

how often are you starting over ? or do you have so many tank's in your hause and start always a new tank ?

Keoni · #12 08/31/2004, 06:44 PM

I used this rock they also sell on ebay good stuff
http://www.hirocks.com/

chipster · #13 08/31/2004, 06:45 PM

I used 40lbs dy rock and 25 lbs fresh live rock. I bought my rock from Tropicorium already cycled , never had a spike of ammonia. I can't even try to understand why some people buy 100lbs of rock and have it shipped across the continent. Chip

ohioreef · #14 08/31/2004, 06:45 PM

I started my tank with a 9lb piece of LR and added BR as I got the money. I now have a total of about 55lbs BR with the 9lbs of "actual" LR. My BR is starting to develop corraline and I have noticed plenty of pods running around on it. The BR also has tons of the little red feather dusters growing on it. So I guess my BR has now become LR!!

I think that is a great way to go if you are financially challenged! It may take a little longer for the tank to look "colorful" but then nothing comes fast in this hobby.

KwajRocks · #15 08/31/2004, 06:54 PM

I tried the "plain" rock method before my live rock set up. The rocks I used which were various types of limestone available here in my neck of the woods, and some lava rock. While the limestone seemed to fair well, the lava rock was a hair algae magnet. No matter what I did, the hair algae seemed to love that rock. Over time, I removed all the lava rock and used it in the sump. I replaced this rock with live rock from Tampa Bay Saltwater , which by the way was shipped in water. I had only a very, very small amount of die-off. Although my tank before the live rock had micro-fauna, the amount and diversity now is beyond compare. The old limestone still resides in my tank, but only as base rock. I guess I am a LIVE ROCK fan. Yes, it is more costly than concrete or limestone, but for me the difference is like night and day. The shipping in water made all the difference. There is a wide variety of life that came with the rock - still thriving after 2 1/2 years. Live rock has made my tank much more interesting and worth the $$. There's my 2 cents for what it is worth!!

Piero · #16 08/31/2004, 07:09 PM

I just think anythig you get on "Live" rock, you can get indirectly by seeding and via livestock you add over time, since corals so often come with a rock base and hitchers...

If you think paying a couple hundred dollars xtra is worth it for some tube worms and chitons, etc..well then i guess that's your call. That stuff can be obtained easily...from a couple of rocks from a friend's tank or the LFS.

Well, I always go with Pacific rock as well...since my reef is a pacific biotope mostly...Bot a huge fan of Atlantic rock...but that's me. But I shudder to think of the cost of shipping rock IN water...

My systems have a huge diversity of micro-fauna, tube worms, brittlestars, limpets, and a wide variety of inverts that have hitched a ride in on livestock rocks...all free

And let me be clear...you DO NOT want to use a different KIND of raock..i/e limestone, lavarock etc....not a good idea in my book..

All of my dry rock is dry fiji or marchall rock..the same KIND of rock as live rock, just dry and a helluva lot cheaper.

kruxy · #17 08/31/2004, 07:10 PM

As Piero knows, I also have no problem using dry rock in my systems. Of the last 300 lbs of rock that has floated in and out of various tanks I have had, I would say only about 30 lbs of it started out as "live" rock.

Folks who want to dump 15 fish in their tanks a month after they set it up might find some usefullness in live rock immediately, but that kind of husbandry will end up with everything dead shortly anyway. If people are working slowly, letting their systems develop over time, then the slower build up of bacteria levels will not be an issue. Every time you add or remove something from your tank these levels fluxuate anyway.

Most recently I was lucky enough to get about 50 lbs. of primo pieces of dry rock... and I wish I had bought 50 lbs. more when the reefer was selling it. Rock will eventually cover in coraline algae if you have your levels right. Like Piero, I would rather wait a couple months and have control over exactly how my reef will shape up, than just go for whats locally available at $6.00+/lb. in the lfs curing tubs, or the gamble you run on getting what other people pick for you when you order through the mail.

Incidentally it also makes upgrading easy... rinse the rocks off well, soak em over night, and then use them to build the foundation for the reef. Then just add what was in your old tank on top of it so you still get to marvel over the pretty colors.. no cycling, no die-offs, no spikes...

KwajRocks · #18 08/31/2004, 07:22 PM

You would be surprised at how inexpensive it is to ship live rock in water.....well the Florida rock went from Florida to Alabama and I picked it up at the airport. I think I paid roughly $1 a pound for shipping. If the rock is "dry" what's the difference in the "type" it is?

35gallonhex · #19 08/31/2004, 07:23 PM

you have no idea how much cheaper this hobby just became for me. OMG TY TY TY hehe maybe a little overthetop but hey when ya got a new body to feed... every little thing helps. ( now on to the lights!)

Ehydo · #20 08/31/2004, 07:25 PM

I have been seriously considering some dry rock. Thanks for the input on successes. I will be buying some this week.

joefish · #21 08/31/2004, 07:27 PM

I'm glad you posted this , I would have never thought of it that way .

One Q? though , do you have to do anyhting to the rock to prepare it for the tank ? Like flush it with a hose , then let it dry ?

KwajRocks · #22 08/31/2004, 07:31 PM

Well, I have to say that the lava rock was definitely a mistake, but the limestone seems to be working fine. It is solid purple just like everything else in the tank.

dieselfish · #23 08/31/2004, 07:38 PM

I totally agree with LR being a waste of money. I have a 200 gallon to fill and I am using the hirocks stuff to add to my existing rock.

surfy · #24 08/31/2004, 07:42 PM

I'm actually starting a new tank with mostly DIY rock. I have other tanks I will add rock from but some of it has bryopsis(bad skimmer, 4yr old DSB) so I am hopeing with all new "top of the line" equipment the algae will go away. Never had an algae problem till about a year ago.

Does anyone know how fast bacteria colonize? I would think it would be fairly quick?
I'm hopeing to get all my SPS into the new tank with in two weeks after setting it up.

This is my first DIY rock(base rock) setup so I have no idea what to expect.

kruxy · #25 08/31/2004, 07:48 PM

As far as prepping dry rock, it really depends on how long it has been dry, and where it came from before you had it. If it is dry baserock like the hirocks stuff, then a good thorough rinse from the hose and an overnight soak in dechlorinated water would suffice. If the rock was previously in a tank, and just sat and dessicated in someones backyard, you might want to put it in a tub of water with a powerhead and let it go for a bit. You might opt to cook the rock, since the idea at this point is to introduce nothing at all. I have rehydrated rock and gotten some off odors before, so flushing it out until it is clean and fresh smelling is a definate good idea.

The stuff I got from hirocks last year had dead insects and other land based detritus in it.. Always rinse it, you never know what is inside the little crevices and cranies.

For the ultimate in safety, you could throw it in a bucket of saltwater with a skimmer and a heater and let it go for a bit, similarly to curing liverock. I have never had to do this myself, but it seems it couldn't hurt.