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  #1  
Old 10/10/2003, 06:36 PM
ATB USA ATB USA is offline
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Ich On Coral

I WANTED TO SEE IF MY LFS IS RIGHT. THEY TOLD ME THAT ICH CAN GET INTO MY TANK BY HITCHHICKING ON CORAL. THEREFORE I SHOULD NOT LEAVE IT FISHLESS UNTIL I ADD MY LAST CORAL OR LET THE FISH GO THROUGH IT NATURALLY(ACQUIRED IMMUNITY). I DON'T THINK ADDING CORALS WILL EVER STOP.
THANKS
  #2  
Old 10/10/2003, 07:10 PM
Brandon Krider Brandon Krider is offline
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I have been searching for the answer for this question today. I have not bought a fish since april, but have been adding acro. frags and a clam over the past few months. No signs of any problems to any fish-all fat and healthy. Yesterday I noticed both my purple tang and desjardan tang dead within an 18 hour time span. My achilles tang started showing ich spots yesterday, but goldstripe maroon,copper band, springeri dottyback, & 6-line wrasse all appear to be fine. So did ich come from acro, clam, dendro, or sclerionepthia? My guess is going to be yes. Hopefully garlic addition does the trick, achilles looks atleast 50% better since last night. Any insight would be well appreciated.

Thanx, Brandon.
  #3  
Old 10/10/2003, 07:16 PM
jfisher2 jfisher2 is offline
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Would dipping in Seachem Reef Dip kill stuff entering the tank? I dip all my inbound corals and I have never has a nasty get into my tanks on a coral. Either I am lucky or the dip works.
  #4  
Old 10/10/2003, 07:33 PM
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Brandon
To be honest with you I don't think that garlic stuff works. I've tried it numerous times. If you read aquarium fish mag last month they talk to i think the head guy at waikki aquarium and he says that stuff doesn't work either.
  #5  
Old 10/10/2003, 07:41 PM
jfisher2 jfisher2 is offline
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I have read a lot on garlic. I haven't been able to find much in the way of scientific research though. From what I have read, it only helps fend off Ich. Once a fish is hosting Ich it doesn't do much of anything.
  #6  
Old 10/10/2003, 07:46 PM
allenreef allenreef is offline
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I don't think garlic helps the kick ick any better. It is a stimulate to attract fish so if they are not wanting to eat garlic is the trick. My tank goes nuts over the smell of garlic. matter of fact I am taking it fishing with me next week and see if the local fish like garlic.

BTW My cichlids also go nuts over the stuff..
  #7  
Old 10/10/2003, 07:47 PM
oceanarus oceanarus is offline
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Ich is always in your tank water. A healthy unstressed fish's immune system can ward off the few that are in the water.

Fish gets stressed, immune system is not operating at full capacity and the ich does not get 'slimed off' as it normally would. It reproduces, more ich attacking fish that is quickly loosing it's ability to fight them as their numbers increase. The ich gets so numerous due to feeding off the fish host (the initial stressed fish) that the other previously unstressed healthy fish can't fight them off at that level and the ich gets a foothold on them bringing them into the downward spiral started by the first fish.

So what I am saying is the only way you have to worry about 'bringing ich home from the LFS' (remember it's already there in your tank) is by bringing home a fish that has visable signs of ich (meaning that he will be carrying and supporting enough to overwhelm your healthy fish you already have) or one that is severely stressed/starved that will not be able to ward off the 'normal' levels of ich and then begins the process described above.

HTH
  #8  
Old 10/10/2003, 07:51 PM
ATJ ATJ is offline
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Yes, it is possible for "Ich" to be introduced into your tank on corals, live rock or any other hard surface. However, this can only happen if the coral, etc. came from a tank which included fish which were infected with "Ich". If the coral, etc. comes from a tank that has been kept about 25°C (77°F) and has had no fish for at least 4 weeks, you can't introduce "Ich".

See: Marine "Ich" for a discussion of the life cycle of the parasite. Theronts must find a host fish within 12 to 48 hours of excysting or they will die, however, after leaving a host fish, trophonts encyst and attach to any hard surface, which could include corals, live rock and even snail shells. The tomonts can then survive attached to the hard surface for up to 4 weeks.

The moral of the story is don't buy corals or live rock from tanks that include fish. If your LFS keeps fish and corals in the same tank tell them to stop, or go elsewhere to buy your livestock. If you still want to buy the corals, quarantine them without fish for at least 4 weeks.
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  #9  
Old 10/10/2003, 07:52 PM
jfisher2 jfisher2 is offline
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oceanurus-

Ich is not always in your tank. I QT all my fish and have never had a fish get Ich in a display tank since I started with SW in 1984. Once the lifecycle is broken you have no more Ich.
  #10  
Old 10/10/2003, 07:57 PM
ATJ ATJ is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by oceanarus
Ich is always in your tank water
Do you have any scientific evidence to support this notion? Do you understand the life cycle of "Ich"?
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  #11  
Old 10/10/2003, 08:09 PM
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according to steven pro ich is not always present in your tank but do you guys know how to contact him. Hes the guy that wrote marine ich in reefkeeping. I'm trying to rid my tank of this dreadful parasite. I think you have to qt main tank fishless for longer than 4 weeks. I added a couple of cardinals and they have only a little ich. But If I remember correctly ich doubles everytime you goes through life cycle.
  #12  
Old 10/10/2003, 08:12 PM
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allenreef
keep me posted if it works for fishing.
  #13  
Old 10/10/2003, 09:03 PM
oceanarus oceanarus is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by ATJ
Do you have any scientific evidence to support this notion? Do you understand the life cycle of "Ich"?
Yes I understand the life cycle of Ich. Sorry I don't have any hard scientific data in front of me, I must have been mislead somewhere along the way. I will try to find where I got that information though.
  #14  
Old 10/10/2003, 10:52 PM
oceanarus oceanarus is offline
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Well I figured out my error, what I posted holds more true for fresh water than marine.

This site http://www.aquamaniacs.net/ich.html says about the same thing I did (for the most part) about FW ich.

But on this site http://www.athiel.com/lib/ich.html about half-way down the page, Ed Puterbaugh, co-author "A Practical Guide To Corals For The Reef Aquarium" says "The fact of the matter is that the ich parasite is probably in your tank all the time. It only manifests itself when there is some other sort of stress going on in the reef environment. A healthy reef tank with proper water conditions will generally rid itself of such problems. So you should really focus on trying to find the source of the stress."

  #15  
Old 10/11/2003, 12:29 AM
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So do you have any problems with ich.. I'm still new and always have problems with ich. Most of the time its a losing battle. I have only kept suceessfully clowns, gobies, firefish, and a blue tang which got acquired immuntiy all other tangs croaked in my reef. I left my tank fishless for four weeks and I added two cardinals and they got ich. So got them out after tearing my tank apart a second time. I'm going to leave my main tank fishless for six weeks now lets see if this works. oh by the way thats a nice clown..
  #16  
Old 10/11/2003, 12:37 AM
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have any of you ever heard of ich spots being on your fish in the morning and then when you get home from work, its gone?

thats whats been happening in my tank for oh, 4 weeks now... the fish are active and eating. I have firefish. from what I understand ich just gets worse. mine is probably on the 6th or 7th round now, and now the rounds last half a day at most.

even though I am experienced with this hobby(have not really dealt with sw ich before though), I am starting to wonder if it is really ich at all.

I am running a UV Sterilizer, and it is a 70 gallon tank.
  #17  
Old 10/11/2003, 12:52 AM
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Unfortunately, being a co-author on a book on keeping corals in no way makes someone an authority on a protozoan parasite that infects only bony fish.

The idea that "Ich" is always present and that it only manifests itself under conditions of stress has been around in the hobby for many years. It is also contradicted by all the available scientific evidence on Cryptocaryon irritans which as been fairly well studied and its life cycle is well documented.

C. irritans is an obligate parasite of bony fishes. It has a 4 phase life cycle of variable but limited length and if theronts cannot find a fish to infect, they will die, which has been documented in at least 3 papers in peer reviewed journals. There is no dormant stage (unless you lower the water temperature to below 15°C) and so any tank left without fish for the maximum length of the life cycle (4 to 6 weeks) will be free from "Ich".

Fish will only have "Ich" if they have come in contact with C. irritans theronts. Not all fish will come into contact with theronts so not all fish will have "Ich".

Both hyposalinity and copper have been demonstrated to kill either the tomonts or tomites. If you treat a tank with fish in it with hyposalinity for 4-6 weeks or copper for around the same time, all the C. irritans will be dead. There will none on the fish, nor in the tank.

So, if you have a tank that has been fishless for 6 weeks, it is free from "Ich" - and so "Ich" is not always present. If you add fish that are not carrying "Ich" (either because the fish never had "Ich" or you treated the fish with hyposalinity or copper) to that tank, the tank will still be free from "Ich" - another example of a tank where "Ich" is not always present.

For more information (with references) see: Is "Ich" always present in our aquaria?
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  #18  
Old 10/11/2003, 12:58 AM
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sSting310,
I doubt very much that your fish have "Ich". "Ich" trophonts stay attached to the fish for 3 to 7 days and the fish will shows signs for at least a few of those days. If the spots are there in the morning and gone in the afternoon, it is not "Ich".
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  #19  
Old 10/11/2003, 11:05 AM
sting310 sting310 is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by ATJ
sSting310,
I doubt very much that your fish have "Ich". "Ich" trophonts stay attached to the fish for 3 to 7 days and the fish will shows signs for at least a few of those days. If the spots are there in the morning and gone in the afternoon, it is not "Ich".

what is it then? lymphocystis(spelling?)??

They have what look like white spots on them. perhaps as little as
just one spot, or a few. then later in the day, gone. the longest it has lasted has been two days and that was weeks ago.

I am lost as to what it is. could it be ich and just be being fought off that quick? what would you do?

Thanks!
  #20  
Old 10/11/2003, 12:52 PM
Xanareef Xanareef is offline
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When I got my first clowns I thought they had ich every morning for a week. It turned out to be air bubbles from the skimmer return, they had been playing in it.
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  #21  
Old 10/11/2003, 02:25 PM
oceanarus oceanarus is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by victor90
oceanarus
So do you have any problems with ich.. I'm still new and always have problems with ich. Most of the time its a losing battle. I have only kept suceessfully clowns, gobies, firefish, and a blue tang which got acquired immuntiy all other tangs croaked in my reef. I left my tank fishless for four weeks and I added two cardinals and they got ich. So got them out after tearing my tank apart a second time. I'm going to leave my main tank fishless for six weeks now lets see if this works. oh by the way thats a nice clown..
Never have run across the marine version before, knock on wood, especially since we have more SW fish than some LFS's. The freshwater version (Ichthyophthirius multifiliis) has shown itself a couple times but it has been a long time since I have had any fish with it.

Thanks for the compliment on the fish!
  #22  
Old 10/11/2003, 04:12 PM
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so do you qt the fish or you just lucky
  #23  
Old 10/11/2003, 04:24 PM
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hey guys well according to Steven Pro yes ich can enter your system if it was held in a tank that has fish with ich. I guess another tank..
  #24  
Old 10/11/2003, 04:24 PM
oceanarus oceanarus is offline
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Just because I have a lot of SW fish don't mean I bring home a lot of SW fish

Most of the ones that we do buy are clownfish pairs or ones that we are going to pair up and they are only bought if they are healthy etc. And most of them do get QT or they they go into a tank where the only other fish is their potential mate......
  #25  
Old 10/12/2003, 12:03 PM
Brandon Krider Brandon Krider is offline
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Thanks guys. Lots of good info. Well the achilles tang looks to be 100% better, but it seems to just be the life cycle of ich-to fall off. So lets get back on the topic of coral transfering parisites. I have the older form of tech d(tectra d). This should kill off all parisites on coral-correct? I don't want to use copper b/c I have about 4 times the coral than fish. I have heard copper can become leached to fish then introduced in the reef tank after leaving the hospital tank. I have used Kick Ich by Ruby Reef in the past with great results, despite the controvercy. I'd dose the tank once after I'd add any new rock or coral. This would get pretty pricy though. Plus good or bad, I have had great luck with garlic. Wether it kills the parisite itself or boosts the immune system of the fish, I have always seen positive results with it. Yet again, great info on this forum.

Brandon.
 

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