How to cycle totally sterile?

[Kinetic]

I'm starting my new system with only dryrock from marco and reefer rocks.

I don't want to seed with any sand (BB even in the fuge).

The only LR I have has some bubble algae, flatworms, and a history of hair algae, so I don't want to seed with that either.

I know it's near impossible to avoid nuisance pests, but either way, I want to be as careful as possible.

Can I add some bacteria additives into the tank and let it grow?

As for pods and such, I'm going with a package from IPFS.

I know it may take like 6 months =/ but I'm patient.

[rommelgin]

Thats a good question.....i was gonna suggest throwing in a piece of shrimp but that would require some bacteria already present in the system to break down the ammonia right? Gonna tag along with you here.

[Cozen89]

I think Ian did the same as you. BB with marco rocks. You might want to talk to him and see what he did. Pretty sure he got his tank up and running farely quick.

[Kinetic]

I think what I'm stuck on is bacteria population. For all the little critters in the rocks, I'm just going with a mix n match package from ipsf dot com.

I could go get the bottled bacteria, which is usually thought of as useless since you could just seed with existing rock, but given the time you don't want to seed with existing rock, maybe this would be good as well.

Problem is, what kind of bacteria am I missing out on?

[Apon]

why don't you just add old water from your tank?

[CruzinKim]

FWIW, back in the good old days, hobbyists use to use Fritzyme #9 bacteria culture and feed the tank with ammonia drops daily. The tank usually took about 2 to 3 weeks to cycle. But by the time the cycle was over, nitrates were through the roof, so that you almost needed to do a 100% water change.

I say, scrub the established live rocks really well to rid of algae and let it cycle with some tank water change water from your old tank.

[Kinetic]

Originally posted by CruzinKim
I say, scrub the established live rocks really well to rid of algae and let it cycle with some tank water change water from your old tank.

Scrubbing won't be enough, and old tank water may have bits of bubble algae or something in it.

The rock probably has some flatworms, and I know from experience that even flatworm exit won't get rid of all of them.

I think I'll go with some additives for bacteria. I really don't want to risk seeding with water or rock etc.

Here's what I found on marine depot in terms of bacteria:

ROWAbac:
http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_ViewIt...ct~RW1191.html

Dolphin Marine Booster:
http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_ViewIt...ct~DP6111.html

Nutrafin Cycle (looks like it's not specifically geared towards marine):
http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_ViewIt...t~HG17600.html

Bacter Boost:
http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_ViewIt...s~vendor~.html


So far looks like ROWAbac and maybe marine booster are good additives for bacteria.

Any suggestions?

[tuberider]

I've had luck with Bio-spira.

[Kinetic]

Thanks for the suggestion on that one!

I'll probably pick two of these products, and then just try them and see what happens. I'll hopefully get a little more suggestions to lean me towards which product to use.

Another question, what is the best way to add ammonia? I remember Norman said he added ammonia somehow and it helped cycle his tank quickly.

I'd rather add it straight than dump in dead stuff / fish food... though I do have an old bottle of DT's Phyto...

[delsol650]

how about something like this, I used this before on my previous tank...

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/produc...pc=1&N=0&Nty=1

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/produc...pc=1&N=0&Nty=1

[juaninsac]

The bacteria that we culture in our biological filters is in the air, on your hands, just about everywhere. There's no need to buy it. All you need is a bit of ammonia to add to your tank every day to feed them and they'll take care of the rest. Adding a dead shrimp is a really unstable way to do it IMHO--the best way to culture a stable population of denitrifying bacteria is to start slow by adding small regulated amounts in the beginning and gradually work your way up. I have a solution of ammonium chloride I can give to you, or you can buy it from a chemical supply house.

[mcurl98]

yes, the bacteria is everywhere. You just need ammonia for your first round of bacteria to thrive. I'm not sure any of the commercial cycling products work. I like the dead shrimp method. Leave it in for a few day until it gets fuzzy. Pull it on and you're on your way.

[sfsuphysics]

ditto, bacteria = eveyrwhere, you don't need to add any... if you irradiate the rocks in outer space and some how sealed them in a vacuum and put them in your tank as such you'd still get bacterial growth to cycle the tank

Or go the old school way... pee in your tank

[Mr. Ugly]

Art,

Fishless cycle.

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...light=fishless

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...light=fishless

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...light=fishless

[dots]

You can cook your old rock and reuse it no problem, it will drive off the bad stuff.

Personally, I don't like using old sand from other tanks and reusing it and get the bagged livesand each time, that will help the cycle a little. If its a BB tank, you could always put it in a remote sand bed as it helps with stabilization down the road and aid it bio diversity.

If your looking to seed it with copepods and amphibods, all you need is one small rock that you are comfortable with from a clean system you trust and that will seed your tank with corraline and pods.

I too have used the Bio-Spria and felt it helped, but how can anyone conclusivly tell?

You just need a source of ammonia to get the system going, what ever food you feed your other tank will be good enough, remember once the cycle is started, it is only as big as what you have in your tank and can't process more until the cuture grows as you add stuff. Some PE mysid, or other frozen type meaty food would be fine. In theory, if you fed your tank and through in a ton of it slowly and reqularly, pulling it out and doing water changes as if fish were eating it, you could build up a large enough colony to support going out a buying more than a couple of fish one day........but that is an experiment for another time.

Some water from an established tank would work wonders and help things along.

[Psionicdragon]

just dose beer or vodka or wine. feed half of cup of blended mush and you are good for awhile.

[nashorn]

Can't you put your old live rock in a tank and leave in your garage with no heater,no lights amybe a pump to move water. Would the cold kill all flatworm and plant spore while leaving
the bacteria alive?

[dots]

If it had flatworms in it, I would be sure to throw some bleach and gasoline in that tank first.

What you loose in bacteria having to start over without, is nothing compared to what one would lose to reintroducing those suckers into a new tank. It is not worth the risk.

[rhythmicfire]

Originally posted by tuberider
I've had luck with Bio-spira.

This has worked for me as well on a number of different occasions.

[ScarabRa]

So the goal is to have a tank with Fish only, pods, and dry rock (will become live with tank establishment)???

The whole point of having Live rock from the ocean is the biodiversity? Biodiversity = Stable environment.

Agreed, it is not always the best idea to use live rock from a tank that was torn down, but why not just get some fresh pieces.


Why not just use the fish themselves to cycle, if that is indeed the goal? Add the hardiest ones first. Even if you use whatever method to get the tank established, you will still get the bacteria off of the fish when they are introduced.

no hate, or disagrement, I just dont understand the goal of "sterile" cycle, and what benefit it has over a natural ecosystem from freshly introduced live rock from the ocean.

[juaninsac]

Originally posted by ScarabRa no hate, or disagrement, I just dont understand the goal of "sterile" cycle, and what benefit it has over a natural ecosystem from freshly introduced live rock from the ocean. [/B]

I believe the idea is to get a jump start on the biological filtration so that when you add animals later (including those found on live rock) they will not experience an ammonia spike. There are plenty of animals found on live rock that survive the initial nitrogen cycle, but there are also a lot that die off. If they are dying because of high ammonia/nitrite levels, it would be nice to alleviate that problem and potentially have a greater diversity of hitchhikers.

Everyone has seen or heard of hitchhikers like stony corals, sponges, small abalones, zoanthids, starfish, etc. Although a large factor in getting stuff like that on your rock is how well it's been handled to get to your door, adding it to an already cycled tank will only increase the likelihood that hitchhikers will thrive in your tank.

So, what I have done in the past is to fill the tank with natural sea water and sterile sand and perhaps a small HOB filter. Add ammonium chloride in small doses daily and test until both ammonia and nitrite are zero. The idea is to build a STABLE population of denitrifying bacteria BEFORE (not after) the addition of live rock. Then add live rock and proceed as usual. Waste of time? Perhaps. Takes a while longer but it's worth it IMhO.

I agree that "sterile cycle" is a complete misnomer. Rockless cycle?

[GreshamH]

Originally posted by ScarabRa

The whole point of having Live rock from the ocean is the biodiversity? Biodiversity = Stable environment.

Really? Well I guess I was wrong when I bought my fresh LR for purely other reasons, mainly shape/form. I can achieve a stable tank and biodiversity other ways, like adding what I want to be in the tank and not rolling the dice to see what parasite I my bring in or invasive algae

[ScarabRa]

Originally posted by GreshamH
Really? Well I guess I was wrong when I bought my fresh LR for purely other reasons, mainly shape/form. I can achieve a stable tank and biodiversity other ways, like adding what I want to be in the tank and not rolling the dice to see what parasite I my bring in or invasive algae

Is it me, or does that sound like a harsh reply ??

My opinion is that the live rocks serves 2 purposes, eaqually.
Biodiversity
Decoration

Too much of one type of animal is bad, an ecosystem works off of balance.

Related Example:
Lets say u live next to a lake, and there are allot of bats around at night. Cant even have a drink on the patio without being buzzed by bats. Lets also say you ABSOLUTELY HATE BATS, rabie infested flying rats (Hypothetically of course).

You find the bats main nesting area, (a medium sized cave, in this example) and you poison them while there sleeping killing off 98% of the group.

Problem is, soon after taking out a player in the food chain, you have directly related/un forseen problem.

Now when you have a drink on the patio you are literally attacked by a swarm of mosquitos.

My point, IMHO Biodiversity is king, But you CAN promote the groth of "positive" inhabitants. (reason for refugum)

You even prove my point in your post. you mention "invasive algae". the reason its invasive (overgrowing), you dont have the preditor that keeps in under control.


Any time you add ANTYHING to a tank, you introduce hitchhikers.
Parasites mostly come in on/or in fish (normally a parasite can not live long without a host)


The time it takes to set up a stable environment with live rock Depends on the freshness (AGREED). Live rock came in to where I got it on September 28th, I just set up a 200gal tank with FRESH live rock (UN "COOKED") on October 4. After my spike, my Nitrites went to zero on October 12th. First specimins went in to the tank on the 13th. (all doing just fine).

I also have done this same process with Every Tank I set up.
Current home tank (55 gal w20gal sump) has been set up through 4 home moves, and one enlargement, from my 30 gal college apartment tank. (about 10 years total)

I have also set up 3 LARGE 300 gal systems, all using the same process. I only have photos of last system I set up:


My experience: If you get fresh rock, and get it in to a high current situation it will pull through with minimal die off, and promote more hitchhikers to survive.

Im not saying My way is the ONLY way to do it, but it IS my way, and what I would recommend to anyone that asks me.

I dont really understand the reason for this theory behind the process in this thread, So I posted some questions, hopefully to give a positive comment. The point of the forum is to share successful experiences, and help everyone have a more positive reef experience.

[Kinetic]

biodiversity can't always come from LR you get. You also get a lot of pests as well which is not good.

I will be getting a bunch of beneficial only critters from ipsf.com. THey provide fairly diverse bunch of critters.

But really, a stable tank should not hinge on the amount of diversity you have in your tank.

It's like how snails are impossible as the sole method of controlling algae. You need good filtration in all sorts of form, and even manual scraping =)

[nashorn]

Looks like sooner or later you pickup hitchhikers good or bad.Maybe the key is to control them?