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  #1  
Old 05/10/2006, 12:52 PM
ayrton ayrton is offline
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advice needed

Hi all,
unfortunately I have an ich outbreak in my 550 gls FWLR display and I haven't another big tank to put my 16 fishes.
I known all about every possible cure for ich and I know that only two scientific and proved methods are copper and Hyposalinity; I've tried garlic, vitamins, reef safe medicine (Esha's oodinex) and metronidazole in the food as usual but I can't wait anymore if I don't want loose all my fishes; I'm doing hypo but I have fear for swallowing that hypo could make to my 2 clowntriggers; infact 2 years ago I've tried hypo in my display using refractometer, monitoring salinity ph, kh, every parameters and bring salinity to 14 ppt; only two small clowtriggers begin to swallow, all other fishes were ok. Fortunately I took clowns out the tank and put them in another small tank with normal salinity and they come back to normal shape.
It wasn't any infection or stomac disease but only a problem of osmo regulation; so I'm very worried for my two clown triggers because I've to make hyposalinity to save all my fishes but I want to know if there is something to do to avoid swallowing problem!!!!!!!
Any advices will be appreciate

Lorenzo
  #2  
Old 05/11/2006, 07:37 AM
leebca leebca is offline
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Hi Lorenzo,

I'd like to help, but I'm not quite understanding the 'swallow' problem.

Fish can handle a low salinity (to 11ppt) for a long period of time. I have not heard of any fish having troubles with this.

By 'swallow' do you mean 'eating?' Some fish may halt their eating during treatment, but most don't unless the water quality goes bad or even just changes.

Unless it is one of the above guesses, you'll have to help me more by explaining what it is you mean by a 'swallowing problem.' I'm afraid that if I try to help, I will just not be able to because I'm not sure what problem concerns you.

Sorry I couldn't be of more help at this time.
  #3  
Old 05/12/2006, 01:27 AM
ayrton ayrton is offline
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Hi Lee,
thanks for trying to help me; sorry for my bad english....by "swallow" I mean bloating their abdomens....they became rounded in low part of their body, but I'm sure this is not a stomac desease or an internal infection, I think that they can't push their liquids (urine or something like that) out from their bodies anymore. Infact when I put them back again in normal salinity (35 ppm) their body became normal as usual.
How could I avoid this problem?
  #4  
Old 05/12/2006, 04:59 AM
leebca leebca is offline
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I understand what you mean, now.

Unfortunately I don't know the answer. I have never had any fish do this during the last 35 years of using hyposalinity. I slowly lower the salinity to 11 to 12 ppt over a two or three day time and everything has been fine with the fish.

Could it be related to the food you feed them? or the possibility that they may have an internal disorder they shared with one another?

Sorry I couldn't be of more help. Maybe someone else has an idea or thoughts on this.
  #5  
Old 05/15/2006, 10:59 AM
ayrton ayrton is offline
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Hi,
I'd like to know two things:
1. Is it possible to use ozono in hyposalinity?
2. Is my goldentail moray able to live in hyposalinity?
Thanks a lot

Lorenzo
  #6  
Old 05/15/2006, 12:07 PM
ayrton ayrton is offline
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my clown trigger' gills are heavily infested (laboured gilling), and it is breathing with only one gill. I'm at 14 ppt now in my display tank; is it able to recover in this situation with hyposalinity or is it better to put it in a QT tank with cupramine to have more chances to save my ct?
Time is my enemy now and I would use the cure that is swifter to save my fish!!!!!!!!!
  #7  
Old 05/15/2006, 08:39 PM
leebca leebca is offline
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1. Yes, but it will not provide you with much help with the disease.

2. Yes, as far as I know.

If you're sure you've done a proper diagnosis and it is Marine Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans) your fish have, then you can give the ones with labored breathing a freshwater dip. This usually improves their infection, but it doesn't cure it. The freshwater dip will help rid the fish's gills of the parasite, but it won't remove them all.

For a freshwater dip/bath guideline, check this:
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...postid=7142933

After the dip, you would proceed with the hyposalinity treatment, watching pH and water quality very closely. To help the hyposalinity treatment, vacuum all the QT surfaces twice a day, at just before lights out and just after lights on. You'll need a refractometer to control the salinity.

You can, however switch over to a treatment with Cupramine. You need the medication AND the copper test kit to monitor the copper.

The choice is yours and only you can be the best judge. The Cupramine treatment would be quicker, as you suspect, but the FW dip of the fish now would give it more time to make the hypo treatment take full effect.

  #8  
Old 05/17/2006, 11:28 AM
ayrton ayrton is offline
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Lee - I need your help

Hi Lee, my dispay tank is at 13ppt from 2 days; I've done a FW dip to my clown trigger and it helped it; my ct is still alive even though it has a heavy and rapid breathing. His body is still covered by ich and it's the same for my other fishes. Today my Regal Angel died.
My nitrites are 0,3mg/l, kh 12, ph 8,2; I'd like to know when Hyposalinity will begin to give some result and my fishes will be able to feel better; I know trophonts will attach to the fish for at least 3 days and as long as 7 days. I hope some trophonts begin to drop off the fishes tomorrow because I don't know how much time my fishes can survive in this condition.
What do you think about this situation? My clown trigger is so precious for me because it is a half of a couple of ct's; for many year I've tried to make a couple of this species of trigger and after many attempts I found two of them that are living together pacefully.
I want to keep these fishes alive desperately, so you have to give me some good advises and some hope to do this.
Thanks for your help and sorry for my many requests of help!!!!!!!!
Lorenzo
  #9  
Old 05/17/2006, 02:50 PM
leebca leebca is offline
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Hi Lorenzo,

You should understand that the reason why hyposalinity is slow in acting to eliminate Marine Ich is because the hyposalinity actually only affects two stages of the parasite's life cycle. When the parasite is in those two stages, the hyposalinity stresses them -- it doesn't necessarily kill them. So fish might go through a couple of cycles with the parasite before the parasite is stressed into submission.

Another thing you should understand is that when you see the trophont on the fish, it is at the end of its cycle. Humans can only see the trophont when it is engorged or what I like to call 'pregnant.' What this means is that there are likely more trophonts on the fish that you can't see which will become visible to you over the next couple of weeks.

So, within these first couple of weeks, you should begin to see progress with a decrease in the disease appearance. Don't expect anything to get better real soon.

About the best thing you can do during this period is the vacuuming I recommended previously AND making sure they are getting the proper foods, with the proper supplements. See this reference and follow its advice closely:
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...hreadid=785228

Keep moving the salinity towards 11ppt to 12ppt. Use a refractometer to control salinity. Monitor things very closely including water quality and pH. Keep the water quality good and pH stable. Nitrites are bad and must be controlled to below 0.5 ppm. So, it looks like you're doing well for now. What is the ammonia level? That must be kept to zero. Test water frequently and with fresh test kits. Make water changes if you need to, in order to control water quality. The reason you don't use hyposalinity in a display tank is because all the small organisms, pods, worms, etc. will die and creat a lot of pollution. So, you are trying to cure your fish in less-than-optimum conditions to begin with. I'm sorry I can't be more possitive about your likely success.

Make sure there is proper/optimum gas exchange going on. The surface of the water needs to be disturbed by a pump flow, for instance. The tank the room is in must have fresh air to avoid a build up of carbon dioxide in the room. If it is safe to do so, remove the lids of the aquarium or, if the fish are prone to jumping, at least partially open the aquarium top. This will improve gas exchange but it will also increase evaporation requiring even more attention to keeping the salinity steady.

How long did you put the fish in freshwater? Did you use methylene blue as recommended?

In the meantime, you should do some extra reading about the parasite:
http://www.petsforum.com/personal/tr...marineich.html

Although the above reference gives approximate stage times, and you have gotten info on times/days the parasite spends in its cycle, remember this: those are just averages. A good example of this is some work published by Dr. Burgess which shows that some Tomonts have been found to hang around for up to 6 weeks before releasing the swimming, infectious stage. This is far from the average of 8 days typically reported.

When you see the last sign of Marine Ich on the fish in treatment go away, you continue the treatment for at least 6 more weeks (I prefer 8). If you see any signs of Marine Ich during that time, start the clock over. You have to have at least 6 weeks of symptom free time before you begin to slowly raise the salinity. It should take about a week to raise the salinity to 'normal.' After it is raised, you still observe the fish for another 4 or more weeks to verify the treatment was a success.

It is a slow process that requires patience and yet a lot of diligence on the aquarist's part. It gets old quickly, caring for the water quality, vacuuming, etc., but the aquarist that doesn't fail and remains steady is the most likely to succeed.

I don't know how readily available medications are to you, but I would go ahead and order some Cupramine and the Seachem Copper test kit. Just to have those on hand in case you need them. But, Cupramine can only be used in a hospital tank without rocks or carbonate-based substrate.

Other than making sure you performed a proper freshwater dip/bath, I think that is about all I can say at this time. There is always a chance that you caught the disease too late to help the fish, or that it has progressed too quickly because the fish were not in better health.

You can always perform another freshwater dip, but that is up to you. The dip itself is stressful to the fish. Still, doing it to a fish likely to die is better than doing nothing.

Good luck!

Don't hesitate to ask any questions or for more help!
  #10  
Old 05/18/2006, 10:54 AM
kdriscoll kdriscoll is offline
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So how long should you treat the fish with Cupramine? is there a problem with treating Puffers with Cupramine? I have ordered a new fish and have him QT for 3 weeks and just watching him and notice that ICK just started showing. I hate to do hypo and wait another 6 weeks and was hoping copper would be faster. Any info would be great!!

Thanks
  #11  
Old 05/18/2006, 01:18 PM
leebca leebca is offline
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Cupramine is an acceptable copper medication for most fish species. Most aquarists use hyposalinity with puffers, to the best of my knowledge.

Cupramine medication recommends a two-week treatment with the medication. You then hold the fish another 6 weeks in QT to verify it is free of Marine Ich. In this respect, the copper treatment is shorter.

Both treatments can be extended if, during the post-treatment phase the disease shows up again. But if each treatment was successful the first time around, the copper treatment is faster. The copper treatment is also more stressful for the fish. Some fishes refuse to eat during the treatment.

I'm not sure Cupramine is suitable for puffers. You might post a new thread and ask that specific question.

  #12  
Old 05/19/2006, 07:06 PM
ayrton ayrton is offline
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Hi Lee,
the situation in my tank is a little better and my fishes look better now but my wonderful clown trigger is still gaspin with one gill and it is very weak. Yesterday I've tried a FW bath with methylene blue as you recommended; I dip fish in 3,5 litres of FW with 21 drops of 1% methylene blue solution for 10 minutes until I saw my ct layed on one side completely rigid and it wan't breathing; so I put back it in the tank keeping it in front of a pump to help for breathing; It began to breath again fortunately; I kept it so in front of the pump for 20 minutes then I released it near a rock.
Now it is keeping to breath with only one gill and is very weak, infact it stays on the sand leaned on a rock and it doesn't swim. This evenig when I was feeding all my fishes it tried to move for searching something to eat on the sand so I put a silverside in front of his mouth but it didn't anything.
Can I keep to hope for him? Can I do something to help him? Every minute of the day I hope to see him swimming and breathing normally!!!!!!!! Do you think is it still possible?
His body is more free of ick!!!!!!!!
Come on, Lee, please give me some hope for my beatiful and wonderful clown trigger!!!!
Thanks a lot for every precious advice and useful knowledge you give me and all great lovers of these marvelous creatures of the sea.

Lorenzo
  #13  
Old 05/20/2006, 10:25 AM
leebca leebca is offline
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I think with the FW dip, it seems unlikely we're dealing with flukes or gill parasites. Did you by any chance check the FW dip after the fish left to see if anything came off the fish?

Let's review a moment. At the beginning you wrote that you were sure the problem was not an internal infection. I went along with that, but now I wonder. WHY do you think the bloated fish are not having an internal infection concern? Bloating is most frequently associated with a bacterial infection. There are many bacteria/microbes in saltwater that it's hard to identify which one it might be. If it was identified, the treatment would be obvious and swift in helping the fish. But in general the internal infection swelling the abdomen are usually caused by a streptococcus bacterium.

The fish can be treated with an antibiotic while in hyposalinity. In hyposalinity, antibiotics are more potent. So you don't want to overdose.

I would treat the tank with Maracyn Two for Saltwater fishes. This formula of antibiotic goes inside the fish, through their 'skin' and helps them with an internal infection. This formula also contains an appetite stimulant which it sounds like your CT could use right now. If it shows signs of recovery, I'd finish the 5-day Maracyn Two treatment and follow it with a Penicillin or Ampicillin treatment. So obtain both (or all three) medications for saltwater fish.

Treat with Maracyn Two for Saltwater fishes at the recommended first dosage level and then follow with doses at half the recommended amounts indicated on the medication instructions.

I think that is about all I could recommend at this point. Are you sure there are no other symptoms or appearances that you've left out of your description?

Can you post a photo of the CT? A relatively close-up of the fish showing as much detail would be the goal.

No matter what is happening, you must maintain a close control on water quality, Lorenzo. Measure ammonia and nitrite levels at least twice a day, preferably one hour after a feeding. You should be getting zero readings on both. Take all actions necessary to provide the best water quality you can. (This is one good reason for fish to be in a hospital tank where water quality can be improved with very little notice or effort.)

I don't want to be the bearer of bad news. . .but realistically, the conditions you described are not hopeful. Unless the matter is systemic and bacterial in nature, the Maracyn Two will not improve the condition of the fish.

  #14  
Old 05/20/2006, 01:22 PM
ayrton ayrton is offline
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Lee my ct is non bloated, his body shape is normal, the problem is breating...it's breating quickly and with one gill.
Probably there are many parasites in his gills.
Could I put it in my QT in normal sea water (35 ppt) with cupramine after a little adaptation of the fish to normal salinity? or I have to wait parasites will come out of his gills?
Are there other methods to help it to breath?

Lorenzo
  #15  
Old 05/20/2006, 01:52 PM
leebca leebca is offline
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I'm sorry I misunderstood. I thought the CT was one of the ones bloated, too.

Copper essentially is the treatment for two primary parasites: Marine Ich and Marine Velvet. I think by now you'd see if the fish had Marine Ich. Marine Velvet, without treatment, usually kills the fish in a few days. Unless you think the fish has either or both of these, the copper isn't going to do anything but spend time.

If you really believe there is a gill parasite (I'm not convinced of this), then the use of a medication with organophosphate can be used. This chemical is found in Clout and another medication Fluke-Tabs. As the one name implies, it fights off flukes and larger parasites infecting fish.
  #16  
Old 05/20/2006, 02:40 PM
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I think it has Marine ich in his gills; Now it is in my display tank in Hypo at 12 ppt by 5 days. Do you think is it better to put it in QT with cupramine in normal sea water (35 ppt) or leave it in hypo waiting ich detaches from his gills?

Lorenzo
  #17  
Old 05/20/2006, 02:47 PM
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Assuming it does have Marine Ich infecting the gills and you've given it a FW dip, and it's been in hyposalinity treatment for 5 days, then the best I can think of is to continue with the hyposalinity. In general, the Marine Ich should not reinfect after they move on to their next three stages.

When you write that it's been in treatment for 5 days, does this mean you took a few days to lower the salinity and then, now at 12ppt the fish has been at 12ppt for 5 days?

Thanks.
  #18  
Old 05/20/2006, 03:00 PM
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The fish has been at 12ppt since 05/16/2006. I'm very worry because it is the only one fish in the tank that is not getting better!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So have I to be patient and leave it in Hyposalinity?
  #19  
Old 05/20/2006, 07:13 PM
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If you're sure it is Marine Ich, then keeping it in hyposalinity would be best for this fish. You can perform another freshwater dip again, but before you do, please review with me exactly how you performed the last one. Please give a lot of details.
  #20  
Old 05/20/2006, 07:22 PM
ayrton ayrton is offline
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I did FW dip as you recomended:
I've dipped my fish in 3,5 litres of FW with 21 drops of 1% methylene blue solution for 10 minutes until I saw my ct layed on one side completely rigid and it wan't breathing; so I put back it in the tank keeping it in front of a pump to help for breathing; It began to breath again fortunately; I kept it so in front of the pump for 20 minutes then I released it near a rock.
What do you think about it?

Lorenzo
  #21  
Old 05/20/2006, 07:38 PM
leebca leebca is offline
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I remember you writing this. I meant more details about the dip.

How did you prepare the freshwater for the dip?

What kind of freshwater did you use?

What kind of Methylene Blue did you use? Who is it made by? Can you tell me what it says on the bottle/package as to what it contains?

Thanks.
  #22  
Old 05/21/2006, 06:22 AM
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I used R/O water; I buffered it with "Kent Marine Buffer" raising PH to 8.3, the same of my dispay tank. Then I heated water to 28 degrees Celsius, the same of my dispay tank and then I put in the water 21 drops of 1% Methylene Blue solution (composition for 100 ml: Methylene Blue FU 1 g. - other components idrossibenzoato 0,1 g. Depured water) This solution is made by "Marco Viti Farmaceutici Spa" (Italian Chemist Company). I aerated water before and during the dip.
Lee, I afraid that the problem is the damage the parasite has caused to the gill fillaments. Hyperplasia can set in and the gill lamellae grows to where the fish can no longer gain O2 due to flow restriction.
What coul I do to save it. Is there something to save it?

Lorenzo
  #23  
Old 05/21/2006, 07:44 AM
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There were some deviations from the dip, such as aeration and how you changed the pH, but if you believe the fish's gills are damaged and no longer infected, then there is no medication you can provide. Earlier on in our thread you indicated the fish's gills were infested.

But there are some non-medication things you can do for damaged tissue:

You can make the fish more comfortable by supporting its mucous coating. Use either Pro Tech Coat Marine or StressGuard to help the fish.

You can keep the fish at 1.015 sp. gr. If you believe there is no disease present, slowly (take 5 days) raise or lower the sp. gr. to 1.015.

Another thing you can do for an injured fish is to isolate it and use an all-purpose antibiotic like NITROFURAZONE (in the product, Furan-2). Furan-2 is good in the sense it contains the above drug along with two other ingredients which will help prevent the fish from being infected.

That is all I can think of.
  #24  
Old 05/21/2006, 01:36 PM
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Lee, here in Italy we haven't Furan-2 unfortunately but We have Nifurpirinol (in the product, Furanol), Is it okay for my fish?
Thanks a lot

Lorenzo
  #25  
Old 05/21/2006, 01:54 PM
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They aren't the same medications. The Nifurpirinol is a medication used for external fungal infections. I'm not sure it would work the same for protecting the fish with an injury, against bacterial secondary infections.

Can you search the Internet for "Nitrofurazone" and see what you might find in Italy?

Do any places in Italy sell Aquarium Pharmaceuticals, Inc. products? That is who sells/provides Furan-2.
 

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