They don't get that big in our tanks from my experience

buldog · #1 03/21/2006, 06:00 PM

I have heard that queen angles get 18 inches, naso tangs get 18 inches and need huge tanks. Well my emperor angel is only 6 inches long after 5 years, clown trigger is 8 years old, 6" long, 2" when purchased. My naso tang is 7", 3" when bought 5 years ago, my blue tang is 4 inches after 8 years, my yellow tangs are 4" after 5 years, coris wrasse is 6 inches after 5 years. My Humma Humma Trigger after 8 years was only 4" long. I have not seen anything get huge! I feed everything I can, and do 20% water changes weekly. They are in a 200 gallon tank. They are all doing great, but not getting huge as we think they get. I think all these sizes are just for the ocean or maybe seaworld, etc.

tryffin · #2 03/21/2006, 06:16 PM

One book I have called "Complete Encyclopedia of the Saltwater Aquarium" by Nick Dakin lists sizes about what you say for "max tank size" of the fish species as well as listing the max wild size.

I think even when we feed our fish well, you just can't simulate natural diet and conditions so the fish won't grow as large.

Wolverine · #3 03/21/2006, 06:36 PM

It sounds to me like your fish are stunted and due for a shortened life span. Yes, I know the response will be about the length of time you've kept these fish, but that's still a relatively small percentage of their natural lifespan.

My clown trigger, which I had in a 50g tank before I knew better, was bigger than that after one year.

I've seen several angels and naso tangs in tanks that are larger than those you have.
I'm talking about home tanks, not large public aquaria.

Dave

michindi · #4 03/21/2006, 07:05 PM

Just becuase a fish is stunted does not mean he will have a short life span. ALL fish we put in our tanks will have a shorter life span regardless. Take bonsai trees for example. They make them smaller, but yet they are very healthy. They can and do live for 50 plus years. So I think that just because a fish stunted does not mean he will live a shorter life.

I dont think you can just put in any size fish in small tank will be good. Just have to use some common sense.. JMO

Wolverine · #5 03/21/2006, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by michindi
Just becuase a fish is stunted does not mean he will have a short life span. ALL fish we put in our tanks will have a shorter life span regardless. Take bonsai trees for example. They make them smaller, but yet they are very healthy. They can and do live for 50 plus years. So I think that just because a fish stunted does not mean he will live a shorter life.

Not true. Your analogy isn't completely useful because there's a huge difference between fish and trees.
You also have to look at the selection part of that equation. We grow trees that came from other surviving bonsai; if you start fresh from the forest each time, you'll have a significantly lower success rate.

Shorter life spans are seen in saltwater fish in smaller tanks. I don't think that the stunted growth is the cause of it, but I think it's another manifestation of other problems (hormonal primarily, likely with some nutritional problems as well).

It's also not true that all fish we put in our tanks have shorter lifespans. Clownfish, for example, tend to live for their full lifespan in tanks that are kept together for long enough. It's felt that this is often longer than they would survive on the reef, due to predation issues.

Dave

michindi · #6 03/21/2006, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Wolverine
Shorter life spans are seen in saltwater fish in smaller tanks. I don't think that the stunted growth is the cause of it, but I think it's another manifestation of other problems (hormonal primarily, likely with some nutritional problems as well).

I do agree with that.

Most trees that are made into bonsai trees do start from collected trees from the wild. So in a way what we are doing with fish is the same thing they are doing with bonsai trees. As long as we keep with good husbandry and we get a healthy fish from the start they will live for some time. But there are exceptions out there.

marrone · #7 03/21/2006, 08:59 PM

If given the probably tank size and food the fish should and will get a lot larger than what you have. Almost all of my fish have gotten very large over time, some larger than what is listed in books and other smaller, but they have gotten larger.

Some do get larger fast than others like Tangs, Triggers, Angel and Eels. I have noticed that Wrasse and Hogs have much slow growth rate though.

If you give them what they need they'll grow and live long live spans. I have or have had fish that have live for over 20 years and other right up there with that.

RichK · #8 03/22/2006, 07:27 AM

This subject always intrigues me. I've been to Hawaii and have seen yellow tangs the size of dinner plates, so I know they get large. However, I've had a yellow tang for over 11 years now and it has grown from about 2" to about 4.5". So, even though it has technically doubled in size, it has taken over 11 years to do so. I feed my fish often and they are very robust. Now, I am not advocating packing a tank with fish because they won't get big. However, I am a believer that a fish will grow into its surroundings. This also does not mean to put a tang in a 20G and it will be fine. My view is that, in most home aquariums, fish don't grow as they do in the wild. From my experience, this "stunted growth" has no bearing on the fish's lifespan.

Kent E · #9 03/22/2006, 09:05 AM

Maybe size has something to do with dominace in social situations as well as mating.

*don't apply that in human terms please.

RichConley · #10 03/22/2006, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by michindi
Just becuase a fish is stunted does not mean he will have a short life span. ALL fish we put in our tanks will have a shorter life span regardless. Take bonsai trees for example. They make them smaller, but yet they are very healthy. They can and do live for 50 plus years. So I think that just because a fish stunted does not mean he will live a shorter life.

I dont think you can just put in any size fish in small tank will be good. Just have to use some common sense.. JMO

Fish are not trees.

They are stunted because their environment can not support them. In the case of many fish, they release hormones that stunt the growth of other similar species. This is very stressful for the fish. Generally when they are stunted, their organs dont grow to the right proportions, and they die early.

Creetin · #11 03/22/2006, 09:59 AM

I believe it has to do with pheromoans that fish release. When there is enough of the chemical in the tank the fish simply stop growing to not overcrowd its enviornment. JMO.

marrone · #12 03/22/2006, 10:05 AM

Your not going to stop certain fish from growing if you feed them correctly and have good water quailty, no matter the tank size. What will happen is the fish will be stress out from it small surrounding and mostly die earlier than it should have.

Lord Voldemort · #13 03/22/2006, 09:30 PM

Feeding a variety of foods will help your fish reach its normal size. Don't you eat meats? Veggies? Desserts? Candy? Junk food?

Also water qualities or frequent diseases will definitely stunt the growth of your fish.
Or your fish are all midgets

Lord Voldemort · #14 03/22/2006, 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tryffin
One book I have called "Complete Encyclopedia of the Saltwater Aquarium" by Nick Dakin lists sizes about what you say for "max tank size" of the fish species as well as listing the max wild size.

I think even when we feed our fish well, you just can't simulate natural diet and conditions so the fish won't grow as large.

IMO there is no "max tank size" for any fish. Or do you mean min.

gvibes · #15 03/22/2006, 11:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lord Voldemort
IMO there is no "max tank size" for any fish. Or do you mean min.

I think he means "maximum size the fish will reach in a tank"

tryffin · #16 03/23/2006, 12:00 PM

Yes, of course ... the other wouldn't make any sense.

Also, according to Dakin, a few species will reach a larger size in an aquarium than in the wild, I suppose if they're from an area with scarce food or something. If I remember correctly it was a couple of the carribean species...

JHemdal · #17 03/23/2006, 01:05 PM

Folks,

Pheromones (and other metabolites) can't be easily measured, nor can their potential impact be assesed. However, they are rather large organic compounds, and the only way they can build up is if water treatment methods are not properly employed. Activated carbon, water changes and skimmers are all capable of removing organics. However, they are not so selective as to leave pheromones and other metabolites in the water to stunt the fish, while removing others differentially!
Example: trout have been grown in tubes with fresh water flowing over them. They grew to more than fill the tubes. So the size of the vessel has no direct bearing on the growth potential of the animal. Take the other extreme, where somebody has a tank and never uses carbon, never changes the water, or treats it in any way. The fish is obviously going to be stressed, and that in turn will reduce the growth rate. Our aquariums lay in between these two extremes.
Add to that mix that there are some fish that simply do not grow as well in captivity for almost everybody - humu triggers and pomacanthus angels (except blue rings) are two that come to mind.

Jay Hemdal

p.s. - the bonsai analogies here are flawed: Bonsai are not genetically produced from small trees. Some of the best bonsai are wild-collected or grafted from wild plants. The rest are grown from normal seeds and are trained to that form. As for them being hardy based on their captive longevity - not true either. Gardeners have to work with them weekly to keep them going: root trimming, leaf plucking, pest control, etc. Water them too much and they die, water them less frequently, and they die. Look at them cross-eyed, and they die. Hmmm, reminds me a lot of marine aquarium fish!.

RichConley · #18 03/23/2006, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JHemdal
[B]Folks,

Example: trout have been grown in tubes with fresh water flowing over them. They grew to more than fill the tubes. So the size of the vessel has no direct bearing on the growth potential of the animal. Take the other extreme, where somebody has a tank and never uses carbon, never changes the water, or treats it in any way. The fish is obviously going to be stressed, and that in turn will reduce the growth rate. Our aquariums lay in between these two extremes. /B]

I was gonna point that test out. The trout actually grew to where they clogged the pipes.

As to pheremones, characins (freshwater barbs, goldfish,etc) excrete a hormone that supresses growth in other characins. The fish secrete in proportion to their mass, so a large fish can be secretining orders of magnitude more than a small fish. This keeps the largest breeeding fish the biggest, and gives them advantages. This is why goldfish stop growing in small tanks. That being said, high levels of this hormone stress the fish, and cause all sorts of disorders. Its the fish equivelant of coral alleopathy.

Dont put big fish in small tanks.

trueperc · #19 03/23/2006, 03:00 PM

I also wanted to point out that the person who started this thread from the sounds of it has some very healthy fish. This topic is always of great interest, but unfortunately all really a matter of opion since I don't believe anyone accually documentation on lifespan of marine fish in home aquaria has every been done, please stop comparing to the ocean as it seems people like to do this when it suits there views, in true reality not one single reefer is going to match the ocean and what a fishes life would be like in the ocean with a home aquarium. There was a thread recently about how old is your oldest fish and there where many with 10-20 years and I bet most of them where not even close to their natural size or even the max size as some site or book say, not saying but a tang in a 30 gallon, everything within reason of course, but I have see as many of you have a healthy fish living quite content in the beautiful tank and to say he won't live that long or his life will be shortened because of his size, My question to the people that believe this given what the fish is in a healthy system thats a decent size, whats your proof that his life span is shorten.

michindi · #20 03/23/2006, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JHemdal
p.s. - the bonsai analogies here are flawed: Bonsai are not genetically produced from small trees. Some of the best bonsai are wild-collected or grafted from wild plants. The rest are grown from normal seeds and are trained to that form. As for them being hardy based on their captive longevity - not true either. Gardeners have to work with them weekly to keep them going: root trimming, leaf plucking, pest control, etc. Water them too much and they die, water them less frequently, and they die. Look at them cross-eyed, and they die. Hmmm, reminds me a lot of marine aquarium fish!.

That is pretty much what I was saying. Im not sure if you were being funny about this, but I do think that marine aquariums and keeping bonsai tree are alike. They both come from nature and you have to work your but off to keep them going. I say this because I once raised bonsai and collected them for many of years. Due to the past storms we have had here in Florida I lost alot of my work.