dosing vodka to bring down N and P

[mesocosm]

Greetings All !


bergzy ... Sweet !


A couple of lines jumped out at me ...

Although our studies were confined to the laboratory, we expect them to be pertinent to nature ...

This is something I always try to be very ... very ... careful with. Making the jump from lab flask to marine aquarium can be a dangerous thing. Similarly, making the leap with bacterial behavior in freshwater oligotrophic lake systems (there is a TON of research regarding C, N and P limitation in this realm) strikes me as being potentially problematic. Even so, there are valuble clues to be had ... if not definitive answers.

JMO ...

... exogenously added ethanol is sufficient to enhance bacterial growth; ...

It's still a little mind-boggling to me that some folks still question whether or not dosing ethanol can increase marine bacterial biomass.

We reasoned that if ethanol concentration were the primary determinant for enhancement of bacterial growth, then increasing the amount of ethanol produced by yeast should also result in an increase in bacterial growth enhancement up to a certain percentage, ... . Nevertheless, bacterial growth enhancement was ethanol dependent. For example, additional ethanol was produced with between 2 and 4% glucose, and under these conditions bacterial growth was enhanced by 17 to 18% ... . These studies indicate that ethanol is necessary and sufficient to stimulate acinetobacter growth.

This is an example of one of the pitfalls of trying to project lab research into marine aquarium husbandry. Their use of "bacterial growth" should not be taken as a general assertion ... it's very strain specific.

Some carbon sources, such as glycerol, which is nonfermentable, require respiration and, thus, result in no ethanol production. YJM835 grown in the fermentable sugars glucose, fructose, or sucrose produced 0.93% ± 0.2% ethanol and enhanced bacterial growth by 53.6% ± 6.3%. Cells grown in glycerol neither produced significant amounts of ethanol (0.03% ± 0.1% ethanol) nor enhanced bacterial growth (−2.54% ± 2.97% growth enhancement), suggesting that yeast-derived ethanol may be the stimulatory component.

The specific carbon source matters.

Low doses of ethanol not only stimulated growth to a higher cell density but also served as a signaling molecule: in the presence of ethanol, Acinetobacter species were able to withstand the toxic effects of salt, indicating that ethanol alters cell physiology.

There are other things besides increased growth going on with dosing a carbon source.



JMO ... HTH ... nice find.

[rsteagall]

Wow too much reading for right now.. I just need someone to pop in and say how much are you dosing per volume and at what rate.

Thanks.

[Black71gp]

i can not get this system to work. I have around 1050 gallons of water or so. I am up to dosing around 50ml of vodka per day. I started at 10ml I have used a whole 750ml bottle of vodka already I am seeing absolutly NO reduction. my skimmer is huge.. needle wheel dart with air pump. 22" diameter and 48" tall chamber with a 8" by 15" riser.. pulls out almost 3 gallons a day if not more now that it has kicked into a high gear after dosing vodka

[badpacket]

You are only using 10x what I used on a 29g, with no bloom either.

I'd say you are just now getting up to an amount that is going to start showing results. I was gettig the cheap rot-gut 750ml from Wahlgreens for $5, so get some more and consider bumping 20ml every 5 days until you see trates start going down.

It works, but you've got a small swimming pool there. I wouldn't want to add a second variable, however adding a little sugar might bump things a bit.

[Black71gp]

thanks.. just making sure i need to ad some more...maybe i will try a little sugar as well

[miatawnt2b]

Originally posted by badpacket
You are only using 10x what I used on a 29g, with no bloom either.

I'd say you are just now getting up to an amount that is going to start showing results. I was gettig the cheap rot-gut 750ml from Wahlgreens for $5, so get some more and consider bumping 20ml every 5 days until you see trates start going down.

It works, but you've got a small swimming pool there. I wouldn't want to add a second variable, however adding a little sugar might bump things a bit.

Wow... so you were at 5ml per day in 29 gal? How long did you maintain this dose?

THanks,
-J

[badpacket]

Well, I'd done this before, only the stupid way. Add a teaspoon or two of vodka, and then decided throwing in a teaspoon of old Biozyme I had lying around would turbo-charge things.
It did.
Watched it all day, and late in the evening for signs of bloom. Nothing.
Got up in the morning to find my tank full of milk, and a couple of dead fish.

Second time I tried it, I started at 2mls because I'd read some people had started at 5-10mls with a similar size tank.

Knew it would take a while, so didn't bother testing except once after a week with no change. Just added before work and forgot about it every day. Ever 2-3 days I would go up .25 mls.

I finally decided to check after about 3-4 weeks, almost forgot why I was doing it, just did it.
I was up around 5-5.5mls, and had 0 nitrates.
Took a closer look at the tank and really noticed a lot more pods, and all sorts of other fauna in the tank.
Only had softies, and they were all looking pretty great for being under PC's.

For a while I kept it at that dose, and then decided to go for broke.
Not sure how high I actually went, would have to check my posts from a couple of years ago. I think I might have gone to 11-12, not sure.
Never had a bloom, and finally decided to do the reverse and see how low I had to go to still maintain 0 nitrates.
Eventually got down to 1.75 or 2.5 as the maintanence dose.

In all, did that for about 6 months before I got the 72g.

Getting my LR, corals and fish from a buddy who's been holding them for me the past 4-5 months while some renovations have been done. Going BB, and he has been using tap water successfully for years. He;s got 2 x 250w MH, and everything is alive, but no coraline algae or real growth. But then he doesn't add anything, and I don't think he does water changes, just adds topoff.

He's also got a 72g,and is giving me his canopy and lights. Gonna take a before and after pic, as my new RO membrane and filters are coming in. He's got some funky black sponges that I'm wondering if will survive.

If nitrates become an issue again, I'm making a coil denitrator to test, and will fall back to vodka or maybe sugar if need be. Have a smaller 30g sump that needs to hold Octopus skimmer and pump, and don't want a tank full of live rock, skimmer won't hold much either to be effective sump. I am not going to starve my tank.

Originally posted by miatawnt2b
Wow... so you were at 5ml per day in 29 gal? How long did you maintain this dose?

THanks,
-J

[smalltime]

I have a 90g tank with 30g sump. It took me 2 1/2 months to get the desired results. Took things very slow. I went the route of 1/2 a ml increase every 3 days. I also dose sugar because the original article stated about single strain of bacteria (mono-culture) which I'm not to sure if that's a bad thing. Water is crystal clear. Only bad thing that happened is a mushroom rock melted, everything else is thriving.
I dose 6 ml a day now with sugar and the tank is crytstal clear. I have the doesage dialed in perfect.

[badpacket]

Yeah, I agree with the article. Having a monoculture is putting all your eggs in one basket. Ideally, I'd rather have more live rock or even something like bioblox for more bacterial colonization if I had the space.

[bergzy]

i use zeovit's zeobac bacterial culture every so often to try and prevent monoculture.

it's relatively cheap and is easy to use!

[Black71gp]

so hum.. 50ml of vodka.. and how much sugar...

[hahnmeister]

Im going to get back on the ethanol for a bit... but this time, I will only dose 1/2 what I was before... maybe then the tank can sustain doing this in the long run, rather than just getting 'stripped' and running out of nutrients to even be of use.

So Ill try only 3ml daily for my 150g of tank. See what happens.

[Black71gp]

i think i need something else.. they are not dropping and using 50ml of vodka.. how much sugar should i use to aid the vodka..

[fermaster]

Black71gp,
It took me a while to get it going too. I had to go on a buisness trip to Texas for 4 months and when I got back my nitrates were at 25ppm. I replaced the GFO and had it running for about a week before I started using everclear. I started dosing 5ml of everclear per 100 gallons of water. I also dosed some prodibo biodigest. After 2 weeks I noticed no drop in NO3. I discontinued the GFO for 2 days and then measured the Nitrates at 10 ppm. I hooked the GFO up again and the NO3 remained at 10 until I took it off line again a week later. It then quickly dropped to ~0.2. Now I dose 2ml of everclear per 100 gallons as a maintenance dose. BTW I never had a bloom.

[badpacket]

Black71gp,

You need to give it a bit more time. I'd reverse myself and say keep dosing at current, and go up 5ml every 4-5 days. Just stop testing for a week, and continue with the protocol.
After a week, test. If no change, do the same for another week. I am assuming you have a known good test kitake a current sample, replace 1/2 with ro water, and see if kit shows 50% drop.

I would not add sugar at this time, as you will add another variable to the equation. You've got a giant tank, and I expect it will take a bit longer than the person with the normal 100-200g tank.

[Black71gp]

lol.. ok thanks its been a little over a month of dosing now.. i have checked my test kit with two other kits, and on RO water.. I guess i will just keep dosing away

[Leopard Man]

How do anemones fare with dosing vodka?

[WaterKeeper]

As long as they can walk straight I think they are OK.

[Black71gp]

mine are so far fine and still huge.. all BTA's

[ganjero]

so to add vodka you need to be running a skimmer?

[tmz]

Yes. The idea is that the ethanol will provide acarbon source for bacteria who will consume it and dissoved nitrogenous waste. The bacteria in turn are removed by the skimmer much more easily than the dissoved organic material.

[Leopard Man]

Originally posted by Black71gp
mine are so far fine and still huge.. all BTA's

That's good to know. I just got a huge one yesterday and it's on it's own island so it can't move so easily to sting the other corals.

[Black71gp]

and YES a HUGE skimmer is needed for vodka.. from what i have read and been told.

[yrema]

just wondering,

can this method remove/lessen considerable amounts of metals present in the tank water? as compared with just using a skimmer?

any inputs, opinions?

thanks.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

It might help export metals a bit, as can growing macroalgae. But the effect is not nearly as strong as for nutrients which the bacteria need to build their new bodies.