pair of pygmy angels

[franv]

i have the opportunity to get a pair of pygmy angel s off a guy who is stripping down and selling his system. how will i know if they are in fact a pair or just two that tolerate each other? i can prob only observe them for 30 mins before making a decision.

i havent seen his tank yet but it must be huge as there is 440 lbs of live rock in it, whereas mine is a 4 foot 66gallon tank.

he says he thinks they are a pair because : "WHEN THE METAL HALIDES GO OFF AND THE ATINICS ARE ONLY ON THEY DO COURT AND SWIM AROUND TIGHTLY TOGETHER RIGHT UP TO THE TOP OF THE TANK WHICH IS 3 FOOT DEEP AND AS FAR AS I KNOW THIS IS HOW MOST ANGELS MATE IN THE WILD"

if i do buy them id like to qt them, i was thinking of chancing it if his system looks healthy but im afraid to risk it. my qt tank is a 12 gallon, will they kill each other in there (even if they are a pair?)? i could borrow another ten g wt tank and qt them seperately but if they were a pair could this break the bond?

sorry for so many questions!

fran

[philter4]

Franv, you didn't say what kind of pygmy angel pair it is. I have collected 5 different species of pygmies in the wild, when I keep them for myself, (I have 3 species at home right now) I always try to collect colonies so I can keep them together. All of the sp I keep- cherub, potters, fishers- the main difference is size. The males are bigger. I have trouble putting them back together as a group if they have been seperated for more then a few days. I have lost smaller collected females trying to introducde them into an established colony.

The potters have color differences as well as size, the males have more black/blue on the body. I have also been shown color differences in flames but I have only seen 3 when diving, none of them were together like all the others. The other problem with flames is they have different color patterns depending on where you collect them.

The problem with pairing up fish from LFS is they have probably been seperated from capture so even if they were a colony in the wild by the time they make it to the store they have been seperated for a long time. If the 2 you are looking at have a size difference and get along IMO they are a pair, I personally have never had 2 males get along. Just remember watching my fish they do scrape with each other regularly because of a pecking order, but they are not relentless. While you observe them for even 1/2 hour if they go about their business without trying to kill each other even if they chase each other for a few seconds doesn't mean they are not a pair

[franv]

thanks philter4,
the guy said he cant remember which ones they are but described them as blue with orange faces...sounds like cherub. he's had them in his tank (at home not an lfs) for a few months...the tank itself is only 6 months old.
i still want to qt them to be safe as ive qted everything else for 4 weekss it would be a shame to have problems by adding the last fish str8 in !
will a pair be ok in a 12 gallon for a few weeks?

i was originally planning to add a single flame angel but i was afraid it would bully the rest of the tankmates which are all peacefull:
-pair of common clowns
-tailspot blennie
-neon goby
-randalls goby
-purple firefish
-red firefish

are flames (or cherubs) likely to bully these fish?

thanks a million in advance

[philter4]

Cherubs are very aggressive, especially if established, but they are small and I don't have problems if they are added last. I keep mine with:
potters angel
fishers angel
redstriped pipefish
yellow striped neon goby
blue striped pipefish
red spotted sand pearch
hawaiian flame wrasse
lightning wrasse
disappearing wrasse
and various shrimp and other ornamental inverts
I have a trio each in both my fish tank and reef and don't have any problems except when I add new fish. After a few days the chasing usually stops.

As far as putting them in a 12 gal, I put a trio in a 10 gal quarintine, lots of rock for them to hide behind. If they are a pair they should be ok, just give them lots of hiding places.

Good luck

[franv]

thanks mate.
one last question, are flames more agressive or bigger bullys than cherubs?

[DamnPepShrimp]

Sounds like a flameback to me. Cherubs have yellow faces, and are more purple, flamebacks are blue with orange faces. I just added two different cherubs to my 75g and they had a little chasing but are getting along fine now. They swim with each other sometime. Just added a jawfish and they went to check him out, let him know whats up, but leave him alone now.

[philter4]

They may not be cherubs, but orange is in the eye of the beholder, most flamebacks have color running up the head to the shoulders and dorsal fin or further depending on species, and cherubs are more blue the further north and deeper they are collected.

When you see them you can give a better discription and then maybe a more accurate ID.

[franv]

sorry i meant are flame angels (not flamebacks) more aggressive?

[tony varrell]

Sorry to change the subject slightly. However someone in this thread seems to know his stuff about Angles. I have a Joculator and want to add a red sea regal. My tank is a 150 sps reef. Will these 2 angels normally be able to coexist. i would not like to loose the joculator it has been with me for three years.

[wayne in norway]

You would likely be ok but you never know. SO yes, slight risk.

I have a pair of Centropyge flavipectoralis, and I qt'ed them for a month in a half filled 20 long so I would think you would be ok for a month in a 12. You need to keep an eye on them tho'. I would comment that when it's time to spawn my male becomes horrifically aggressive, even to fish 4 times his lengh, but tends to ignore smaller fish

[DamnPepShrimp]

I think you are fine adding a regal into an established joculators territory. If you want, seperate the two by egg crate. Also thing to worry about is the regal eating corals, they are more reef safe then most, but zoos and LPS could be sampled, SPS you should be good.

franv, so are they a pair of flame angels? Not cherubs or flamebacks.

[franv]

no ... lol ... they are a pair of cherubs...but im tempted not to buy the pair and instead get a single flame angel. ive heard flame angels are bullies. so i was wondering (1) if they are more agressive than cherubs, and (2) if either or both species of angels are likely to bully my current inhabitants.

[Sheol]

It depends. Both species are fairly aggressive. Cherubs more so in smaller quarters from what I've read. I think you'll end up picking the one you find prettiest.

Matthew

[DamnPepShrimp]

I have a pair of cherubs, they aren't too aggressive, don't bother anyone, even each other. I think a flame would be more aggressive. Also, flames are probably less reef safe, but every fish is different. I'd rather have the flame due to the colors, but it's more of a risk.

[crispyreef]

I have a cherub now and want to add another. Can this be done with an established cherub? I have a 165 sps tank.

[philter4]

I have added small females to an established harem in the past with good results, but I have also had females killed trying to add them. If you try I suggest taking the pair you have and putting them into a small pals container with some rock to hide behind and sinking that into the tank. Put the new angel in and leave her for a week then let the others back out. The small pals are big enough, have good slots in the lid for circulation, and they can see each other. The new cherubs can now get comfortable in their new home. I have used this method more then once. The biggest problem is catching out the ones in your tank.

Good luck

[racerw]

tony- I had a pair of Joculators in my 210 & had a great opportunity to get a pair of captive bred Interruptus angels.
Long story short it did not go well at all. Even when I had the male joculator (very aggressive) in a collection container they tried to get at each other thru the plastic.
I think it might/could work if you had time to acclimate them to each other. I would take both fish out of the main tank and put them in the same Qt tank. Seperate them w/egg crate making sure they can see each other but not get to each other. See how that goes for a couple of days, if all goes well take out the egg crate & watch how they act towards each other. If they act OK towards each other I would than place them in the display tank at the same time. Good luck