Ich treatment for anyone who wants their fish to live

[PhillyD123]

Thank you for that like I stated earlier I am not here to fight it does irritate me when I hear about copper and all the others I again I say I and my fellow hobbyists cringe at being preached with no one offering alternative methods. The personal attacks are quite comical to me if I wished to duke it out with someone I would walk into a bar like I have done in the past and tell somone they are an idiot. The fact that people are choosing to attack me instead of my thoughts other than when I disagree with age old tactics should tell people that may agree with my tactics there is probably some credibility. I am not hinting at anything it is unfortunate that I am being misheard. I have said time and again I reccomend a low stress natural way of combating a man made problem. Allicin the easiest way to acquire this is garlic which also stimulates the appetite (Something people and fish both lose when ill.) And not stirring up anything else. Nature gave fish cleaners IE neon gobies and cleaner shrimp. I have a friend that used copper one time lost his fish and chose a more passive approach fifteen years ago Garlic and not stressing the environment. He is one of the most succesful reef keeepers I have ever come across. He has not lost a fish since I could ramble off the research word for word if people really insist but I prefer laymans terms not everyone speaks latin. For those of you who aattack me please cease and desist if you disagree with my points then let us share our knowledge attacking me is quite comical It is easy to attack a person over a computer. If I truly offend you so badly head up to my neck of the woods and we will work it out over a beer. To get in somones face takes alot more courage. I really do not like to fight I have done far to much of it in my lifetime and have the scars and experince to prove it. I realize me suggesting alternatives and pointing out the downfalls of the "Usual treatments" may come across offensive because they have worked for you but at what cost? Maybe some maybe none. I merely Offer a different outlook. If I may I know more about the human body than most. Treating people is easy they tell you all the symptoms you can suggest bedrest and treat the person as a whole. Treating fish is far different you are making shots in the dark. Putting it plainly copper is a poison. The ocean does not change in salinity therefore fish are not used to it. Malachite I will not even bother. I do not think Ich is a virus I know full well what it is. Read that post again with an open mind and you will hear what I am saying not what you want to hear. I am saying you can not Compare it to a bacterial infection and throw some pills/medications at it and make it go away. It is Comparable again comparable to a viral infection which require full care. That is what i was trying to say it is unfortunate I am misinterpreted so much. My final note Garlic unless you have access to a chem lab. A stable consistent environment and helpers Cleaner goby and cleaner shrimp safe natural, non destructive and barring the offense to the nasal passages risk free. 87.2% of bacterial infections can be fought off by the human body alone. Let your fish do the same. and the cold hard truth is I may be right or I might be wrong I have a background that puts me at an advantage with sickness. So I offer another viewpoint. Retired Corpman (Combat medic), ex nurse Phillip

[MMJ]

Okay, so for the admitted novice, what do you do if you have a sick fish (ich or crypt) and you can't QT b/c you have a reef tank - -can't catch the thing b/c it hides in the rocks and you have too many corals/inverts and live rock to remove from the tank? I just had an epidemic and lost a few fish. (Of course the guys that set up my tank and were supposed to service it were MIA and of no help!)

[luke33]

MMJ, just try to keep them well fed and have a few cleaner shrimp in there. If they are super healthy, they may build up an immunity for ick, if not, they will die.

[szwab]

Originally posted by MMJ
Okay, so for the admitted novice, what do you do if you have a sick fish (ich or crypt) and you can't QT b/c you have a reef tank - -can't catch the thing b/c it hides in the rocks and you have too many corals/inverts and live rock to remove from the tank? I just had an epidemic and lost a few fish. (Of course the guys that set up my tank and were supposed to service it were MIA and of no help!)

in addition to the above posts. I say I have no proof scientifically, but I have found that a moon light or an ambient light in the room during the "lights out" period of the tank helps. I believe this is because it helps reduce stress in the night time hours. Again no proof it just seems to work for me. I also feel that using a QT tank prior to the introduction into the tank is helpful to head off potential problems or pests/hitchhikers to avoid introducing them into my display tank.

[gobiefish]

I read somewhere on studies done on ich that it may be a photoperiod parisite and that leaving the lights on may breake the life cycle due to the ich parisites finding thier way back to the fish host while they are resting in the dark.I'm not really sure what the lighting period was something like leave your lights on for 24 hours and then cover your tank and put it in total darkness for 24 hours and repeat several times supousdly this confused and disrupted it's life cycle . and there wasn't much research after that. Also don't forget the cleaner wrasse's they are less prone to getting ich but a harder fish to keep. I know that when a miricale cure comes along for ich that is 100% reef safe and non toxic the fish diseas section will change darasticly ,but to get there we as reef hobbiest need to keep moving forwards not backwards and to do it wich means opening our minds to new ideas even if we don't agree with someone elses ideas . Take a long step back and look at the marine aquarium hobby in the late 60's early 70's. we are doing a lot of things today they couldn't back then and that comes from going forward .Think of all the trial and error it took to get ware we are today and all the fish butcherd and lost over new ideas and one minded oppinions.But we are ware we are because of that!!!!!! Me I'm 100% for going forward with new ideas and as naturally as possible!!!!!

[Freed]

Philly, do you realize how ridiculous you are making yourself out to be? Do you realize how much of a fool you are making out of yourself? Please do more research on crypt and study it for a while and then come back and at least make it look as though you are educated about it and its treatments. WOW all I can do is laugh about you right now.

[ArgonDreams]

I stand by my statements.

I still feel you provided little in the way of proof, and a lot in scare tactics and innuendo. I apologize if you consider that a personal attack, but I stand by my first statement.

In your first posts, I never did see an alternative to copper and hypo-salinity treatments other then a vague mention of your friend and garlic. This certainly doesn't tell me anything, nor is it scientific in nature.

Additionally, I did take issue with your drawing relations between dissimilar items and calling them the same. Cancer and parasites and viruses and bacteria are not the same and can not even be considered or treated the same. Ich is a parasite plain and simple and will respond to chemicals, immune systems and water changes. Any of these will work depending on your situation. Copper in appropriate levels does damage free floating cysts and can affect a cure by this method. As with other human and fish medication it's a harsh chemical that needs to be dosed properly or damage to the fish/human will result. This is neither "bloodletting" or "barbaric" but "pharmacology". Additionally other methods are known to produce excellent results, such as garlic, although garlic has it's issues too(See link below).

Garlic and Ich

Garlic and it's usefulness

The reason I take issue with your post (and not you personally) is that you suggest throwing out proven methods that have been studied for both effectiveness and husbandry purposes and offering nothing but vague mentions of other methods that your "friend" uses. Additionally, you call into question the ethical means of these methods and therefore the people that use them and give no real basis for this claim.

Hence: I question the validity of what you say and the method you say it, and will wait until real science is out on the subject.

[PhillyD123]

Freed you are completely missing the point. Clearly you do not read well dissapointing. What have I said about alternative treatments One and only one regimen in particular is all I have mentioned would you like me to jot down a bundle of latin so that you and every other member of this forum but perhaps five will full understand. If I truly cared about your opinion about me personally hm wait I don't. Tell me what you disagree with tell me why. You are a rumour buster an expert. (Albeit apperantly an aroggant pompous... noThat is how you came acrossI will give you the benefit of the doubt) Tell me where I went wrong. It is sad that a few people such as yourself having hours to plan your assualt on me Do not even talk about the Hm the whole point behind my topics. I am stating what should be common sense weaken the fish to make him well does not make sense to me if it does to you that is well and good for you. Trying to make me feel or look like a fool gets you nowhere. In fact I would imagine the expert not saying a word about the subject makes them lose any and all credibility I know it does to me. If treating with allicin and letting your fish stay in an environment that they are accustomed to and comfortable in rather than stress them out is truly a bad idea tell me why? If adding natural assistance IE Cleaner shrimp neon gobies is really dumb then tell me why O' mighty expert. I have no need to reserach "Ich" I know plenty am I claiming to be an expert no and anyone without A doctorate who does should feel like a fool perhaps. Especially one in the Auto industry. Hello healthcare helping living things get better. Building cars and healing and do not go hand in hand. Rookie maybe idot not by along shot. And when an uneduacted attack like that comes like that. Yeah Back when I carried an A 2 a Kbar and was in a squad to save peoples rears I may have lowered myself to pathetic levels like that. Then I grew up. quite a few have attacked me which is shear cowardice leave the fighting to the soldiers and tell me your findings fellow ammature. Which yes that is what we all are cold harsh truth. Placing yourself in a selfordained position of power simply because of experience and not TRAINING Tells me far more than is needed.Taht being said AS a final offer come to my neck of the woods if you wish to fight me after I have bounced your head off a brick wall for a while I am sure it will Leave your system. I despise violence but if you really wish to fight I guess I can accommodate your appearant need. I am not here to do battle. SO if you really don't like what I am saying how about in a manner that is more mature than a school child you tell me your findings.

[Freed]

You just restated my point. I have done nothing to make you sound like a fool though it has been you doing all the talking and doing it to yourself.

[PhillyD123]

Truly what do you disagree with?

[PhillyD123]

Is it the low stress ?
Is it the Allicin? Ignore anything inflammatory and Answer my question you must disagree with something.

[PhillyD123]

Come now whether or not you like me or not does not mean jack what in my treatment regimen do you disagree with?

[Freed]

Oh no, not gonna argue with your profound "wisdom".

[PhillyD123]

Don't know if you noticed go back and read bud. I attacked treatments. And gave Laymans terms and explanations. People ignored that and went for me I returned fire. Would you me to dig through my stuff and find the old medical journal stating the findings on allicin. I chose not to because unless you went to school for that profession it will be wothless. Laymans terms. For common people. It is worthless otherwise. Step up or shut up their is the corp talking again. However I will not delete but because it needs said

[PhillyD123]

Don't know if you noticed go back and read bud. I attacked treatments. And gave Laymans terms and explanations. People ignored that and went for me I returned fire. Would you like me to dig through my stuff and find the old medical journal stating the findings on allicin then go online and download a small novel to post ? Seriously I chose not to because I assume people know what "Ich" Is unless you went to school for that profession it will be wothless. Laymans terms. For common people. It is worthless otherwise. Step up or shut up their is the corp talking again. However I will not delete it because it needs said

[PhillyD123]

Argon thank you for the maturity. What do you want me to back with science? I will do it gladly. How simple would you like it. NOt insulting you simply do not know your background As far as the comparisons it is to simply be understood and to simplify. I fear I may have forgotten how sharp my tongue is so as far how I come across i can respect that. I suppose I should have worded better (Throughout all this) My comparison of chemo and copper well I have been spared by chemo and know its place I am not against copper either just harsh and a last resort in my book and I know as well what it does to organisms that are in the weight range of you and I. And that is in small doses. At last a discussion. again what would you like me to back I do not take it as a challenge simply the first request for backing I have read.

[PhillyD123]

Profound wisdom I asked for your input not argument. If everything is a confrontation to you then please remove yourself from my presence. It makes you a waste of time on this post

[PhillyD123]

for example i once used a copper treatment in my freshwater as a last resort. Every spring tubifex infested my tank due to changing water conditons and a lack of funds to remedy this with ro water. I went camping and the cichlid tank was on the brink of death when I returned (I hate tubifex if for no reason other than the smell ) I was stuck with the choice of transplanting a weakend livestock to a new environment. Which as should be common knowledge by now is not my preference which is all medical treatments are. No one has to do what the doc' says So I chose after some hurried studying a copper treatment. Only one fish was lost and I am leaving out details because who cares. Upon dissection my proffessor and I found harsh damage to the organs I chose to go light too. Now all my other fish survived until an "ICHTASTROPHE" And sorry to steal your ammo for the next assualt but they are apples and oranges (there I go comparing again) Fresh and saltwater "ICH"

[PhillyD123]

So they all have their uses. Start light and work up had I not been assualted I would have stated that I have had to use all the methods prescribed and after all was said and done and a few were flushed I hit the books and found this regimen and like a fool chose to share it after trial and success. If it saves one fish it is worth it. Far to often in general people mistake opinions for fact. I will be happy to back up my findings with science I will still simplify it and after all is said and done it is still opinion backed by science.

[loosbrew]

PhillyD123,

I must admit, I am having a hard time reading your posts. If you want to be taken seriously about such a debatable topic, please learn how to punctuate your posts so that they are legible enough to discern what your real point is. My impression thus far is that you can't have it any other way but your own and you attack anyone else who differs from you. And referring to people you are discussing with as "bud" isn't very friendly either. If you change your tone perhaps you will be taken a bit more seriously.

Back to the topic... I agree with you on a a surface level I don't have scientific proof other than what has worked for me, however, I too am not a believer in using chemicals and other "unnatural" means to eliminate Crypto from my fish. My fish rarely show signs of it in my tank, however they do occasionally pick it up. I don't add fish regularly and have had the same fish for many years now. One in particular, my 13 year old A. Frenatus, gets a spot here and there about once or twice a year. I don't know for sure what the spots are for sure, but it looks like your typical run-of-the-mill Crypto. She shows no sign of stress, lays eggs likes she's been doing for a while now, and it goes away on it's own in a few weeks (another sign that it could be Crypto). It doesn't come back for another few months or years sometimes.

At the end of the day, everyone differs on their methods. It doesn't make their methods correct or not. I will stand by my method of providing a healthy enough environment to facilitate thriving animals.

Luis

[PhillyD123]

If you are not caring for your tank I would reccomend from my point of view and findings that a lighter regimen would suit you well. Freshly crushed Garlic has the highest content though garlic oil did me and my friends fine. As much as it is preached allicin is far from flawless. It does work but the delivery is the problem. I have read of some placing it directly into the water which would make it highly weakened so I simply soaked my food for 5 to 10 minutes prior to feeding. In the catching fish world it is common knowledge garlic stimulates fishes appetites. By feeding garlic you are killing two birds with one stone. Because fish like other organisms (Barring a few) Lose their appetite when stressed or ill. And you are still administering the allicin. Keep in mind you are still losing a great bit and short of harpooning your fish with a syringe it is unavoidable. Something is always lost on it way into the blood stream. Allicin has many interesting and fascinating qualities which is why the medical field is so interested. It boosts the immune system (Some wives tales are true.) is reputed to have antibiotic properties and the debates between my proffesor and others got heated to the point where physical violence was imminent. So lets assume that it does because my father in law had 65% of the bacteria die next to 23% in his study this means garlic actually does three things Makes em hungry, Helps em fight it natuarally and then Is an antibiotic?It is also reputed to "Mask" the fish which blocks one of the life stages of "ICH" though the author of this one said it was the best he could explain it (Marine Bioligist) which is well rounded because "ICH" Brings friends or rather opens the door to other infections and diseases.
Next up no science but my own backing it I added more minerals after reading that this assisted. You can leave it out but as far as fighting things the more minerals and vitamins that can be used in the fight the better. (This is the medical proffesion speaking. feel free to ignore the Vitamins and minerals I can not back it up scientifically It was anothers thoughts that I agreed with.)
Next up Natural helpers. Cleaner Gobies and cleaner shrimp. And as gobie pointed out cleaner wrasses though I know nothing about them. Anyone know if the light trick works too? It sounds very feasible to help in the fight.

Simplifiying with less wind Garlic, Minerals? (Maybe) Natural helpers. Well rounded and if worse comes to worse step it up a notch with other more common regimens. Mine is low stress low work. NO water changes other than the norm. five more minutes of your time and such. Does it work it has for everyone I know that has tried it. will it for you hey difficult to say my tank has a completely different ecosystem than anyone elses and they are all differnet than the ocean. If you would like scientific names mumbo jumbo and backing I will gladly dig it up for you. I see no point this was pretty cut and dry.

[ArgonDreams]

Well all of the treatments have their place. Hypo, Copper, Garlic extracts, Fallow and Quarantine.

I reject notions that QT is a poor method. I believe in multiple fish tanks, it's not only essential but if done properly vital to the recovery of the fish. It not only transports any cysts that are on the fish to a new environment and preventing them from dropping off but allows a less stressful environment for the fish.

The key is doing it right. Everyone should be ready for a QT situation and a moments notice. Personally I always have pre-mixed water aerating and have a secondary biological filter ready and running on my main system to transfer over. Secondly, Salinity and Temp need to be matched. Otherwise you are taking a weak diseased fish and making it fight both the water conditions and the disease. Finally a proper environment for the fish is best, hiding places and an easy cleanable tank.

This prevents or greatly reduces the disease transmission to other fish and to keep the fish in a controlled area for proper observation without the vagaries of the main tank (hiding in rock and predators). It also allows for the use of harmful chemicals that would otherwise destroy/damage or hurt the main tank (Copper and Formalin).

I agree that immediately treating copper isn't the best treatment. However it's been proven effective and safe if done properly with real test kits.

Formalin can also be used for Ich but again is a carcinogen and needs to be used with utmost care.

Finally, Hypo salinity and Garlic are in my own opinion the best methods for treatment and I believe from the information I have read to be the easiest on fish if given in a QT. Garlic from my own observations does act as an appetite increaser, and the Hypo-Salinity interrupts the life cycle of the cyst while simultaneous reducing the osmotic pressure on the fish giving him more energy to combat the cyst naturally. Combined with a temp of 80-82 to increase the life cycle it should break the cycle effectively in the QT allowing the fish to recovery naturally.

However where I take issue with the above posts and my request for more information, is garlic used by itself has NOT been proven effective. The links I provided are two observations on this subject and have less then stellar results. However, there is something to be said for personal observation so I consider science on garlic still in progress.

Can you provide in any form articles done in some sort of scientific manner that shows Formalin, Copper, Quarantine Tanks and Hypo Salinity to be detrimental to Ich reduction if done properly? Almost all instance I have seen of the above methods failing were due to the fish either being to far gone for any treatment to affect them, or being done improperly.

Thanks

[triggerfish1976]

Philly,

I think you're still missing the point and it really doesn't help when you're trying to make a intelligent argument and your grammar is almost unreadable. I honestly didn't understand what you were trying to say in the last string of posts.
I also think that even though your ideals on pathogen treatment are noble in that you want to go about it in the most humane way possible, there are valid arguments by others that disagree with your idea of what humane is. If you look at many of the medical treatments that people go through, each one usually has a negative side effect to the treatment that may cause discomfort in other areas. The same thing can be said for fish. Like I said previously, medications like copper have been highly successful for me since I started keeping fish 15 years ago. I have kept hundreds of different species and not one was lost to copper treatments. Like any other medical treatment, issues can arise if it is not administered properly and I bet you will find that most people who have had problems with it did not dose it correctly or there were other external issues that resulted in the fishes demise. Keep in mind that some fish are generally doomed right from the get go and no treatment can save them. Hobbyists also have a tendency to want to assign blame to anything but their own lack of husbandry techniques so they blame it on the meds and the next thing you know, copper is unsafe and it snow balls from there.

A good example of what I am trying to say is the recent history of Latezonatus Clownfish.
Latz Clowns have built up a reputation in the rare clownfish circles as being highly disease prone due to the frequency with which they come down with all sort of maladies during acclimation. For the last couple of years, most of the specimens coming into the country were dying from these pathogens but the main reason for this was because hobbyists were trying to do the bare minimum of FW dipping and hypo because they were afraid that meds. would make them sterile. In the last year more and more of these fish are making there way into the US and people are now using copper and formalin thus reducing the fatalities to the point that this fish can actually be considered moderately easy to keep.

[tmz]

There doesn't seem to be any coherent action recommended in this diatribe. Let's take a breath and review what we think we know for the sake of some clarity and more importantly for the animals we tend and enjoy.
The enemy is ich or if you will crytocaryon and /or amyloodinium and the secondary bacterial and fungal infections they often spawn. Cryptocaryon is less lethal but if untreated lethal nonetheless. Some fish can shake it off in good environments . It is a protozoan which at times seems to be ubiquitous. Some studies have shown that its cysts can survive for over 70days without a host. Symptoms of cryptocaryon are white spots and rubbing or even twitching in the water.
Amyloodinium is a dinoflagellete algae which heads right for the gills often doing lethal damage before it's diagnosed. The key symptom of amyloodinium is labored breathing due to it's attack on the gills.
These two infections often go together resulting from the same stressor or from the weakening of the animal, due to one or the other.
Prevetion stategies include good stable water parameters including but not limited to; temperature, salinity, ph,ammonia and nitrite/nitrate control etc. Temperature swings in a short period of time may be the most dangerous. Low stress enhanced by regular feedings,lighting, adequate space and compatible tank mates. Supplements such as garlic seem to be helpful as well. Quarantine of all new specimens for at least 14days symptom free. Cleaners such as skuink cleaner shrimp also help. A properly sized UV sterilizer will destroy bacteria and dinoflagellates such a amyloodinium and if large enough will also hold down the larger protozoans incliuding crytocaryon .

Treatments: fresh water dips to cut down the infestation and quarantine with copper treatment for 14 days. A formalin dip is also helpful.

Alternatives: Euthanize or discuss wholistic appraoches and medical analogies while you watch your once beautiful fish die horrible deaths. Once the infection hits the point where labored breathing starts the fish will likely die and will certainly die without treatment. There are things you can do in terms of treatment and should in my opinion do them.Take some action and don't wait hoping for the best for too long.

[triggerfish1976]

Originally posted by tmz

Treatments: fresh water dips to cut down the infestation and quarantine with copper treatment for 14 days. A formalin dip is also helpful.

FW dips are not needed and only effect the parasites that are on the outer most surface of the body. Copper will do what is needed on its own. No sense in stressing the fish out further with a FW dip.