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  #76  
Old 10/30/2003, 08:54 PM
CrystalAZ CrystalAZ is offline
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That's a funny article! I don't have any algae yet though, so I'll have to clip the recipe for later.

Crystal
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  #77  
Old 10/31/2003, 11:13 AM
WaterKeeper WaterKeeper is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by CrystalAZ
That's a funny article! I don't have any algae yet though, so I'll have to clip the recipe for later.
It was in this years April Fool's edition of Reef Keeping Magazine.

I've more or less gone through this before but here's a recap--

  • Week 1--Rise of ammonia producing bacteria in the sand bed. Possible bacteria and protozoan blooms. Oxygen present throughout the bed,
  • Week 2-3-- Nitrite forming bacteria multiply, oxidizing ammonia to nitrite, Sand bed is still totally oxygenated.
  • Week 3-4-- Full nitrification is established. Ammonia is converted to nitrite then almost immediately to nitrate. Diatoms start to appear. Bed still oxygenated.
  • Week 4-6--Height of brown algae bloom. Rise of green algae. Upper layers of sand bed are fully populated with aerobic and nitrifying bacteria. Some decline in oxygen as one proceeds lower in the bed.
  • Week 6-8--Diatoms decline and green algae starts to predominate. Distinct layers of declining oxygen levels are starting to develop in the bed.
  • Week 8-12--Height of green algae bloom. Marked stratification of oxygen levels in the bed. Anoxic zones starting to develop where nitrate is reduced to nitrogen gas.
  • Weeks 12 -?--Decline of green algae. Anoxic and anaerobic zones are present in sand bed. De-nitrification is main form of nitrogen export.


These time frames are only approximate and depend on the amount of LS that seeded the bed and the curing method for the LR. It is important to note that many bacteria can use nitrate as a source of oxygen but only when low oxygen levels occur in the sand bed.

Hope this helps and Happy Halloween!!
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Last edited by WaterKeeper; 10/31/2003 at 11:25 AM.
  #78  
Old 11/03/2003, 08:06 PM
ChrisB ChrisB is offline
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WaterKeeper,
Our stomachs/wallets are starting to fill up, and our brains are becoming anoxic, we need another installment!!!
This is a fanstastic thread! Thank you WaterKeeper!
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  #79  
Old 11/05/2003, 03:03 PM
WaterKeeper WaterKeeper is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by ChrisB
...our brains are becoming anoxic, we need another installment!!!
I warned you Chris about eating all those Slim-Jims; they're loaded with nitrates and nitrites.

Let's add just a little more here and talk about VIP--I mean VHO lighting. Now VHO or Very High Output is just a NO fluorescent on steroids. There is also HO, high output, but unless your going to use T5 tubes there is not a lot in its favor.

You can go to the LFS where they will gladly sell you VHO tubes at any popular K value, up to 20,000K, for your tank. You then rush them home and replace the NO tubes that came with your tank with the VHO, turn them on, and....nothing happens. Well in some cases they may glow at the ends or light very faintly but the blinding light you anticipated just isn't there.

Remember up above when we defined a ballast I said it was a current limiting devise? Well try to run a VHO on a NO ballast and it really will limit that current. An NO ballast limits current to a VHO to about a third of what it really needs to run. To get a VHO to "to do its thing" you need a ballast that is made to run VHO tubes. This means two options. Buy a canopy already setup for VHO or, two, buy a retrofit kit. Many people op for a retrofit kit but I wish to warn you--Some assembly is required!

If those words scare you then right there!!! We are dealing with electricity and salt water here, a potentially lethal combination. You want to know what you are doing.

Having given you fair warning, the wiring is not very complex and most ballasts come with wiring diagrams. Your big choice is which flavor of ballast to get. The NOs usually come with magnetic ballasts, aka "tar ballasts" (you find out why they are called that if you wire them wrong and they melt down ). These are cheap ballasts only costing a few bucks. That is a few bucks for the NO. When you buy them for VHO the price goes up about 8 fold. For the life of me I have no idea why that is. They should cost more but not that much more. The other option is an electronic ballast. WK does not recommend brands but Icecap electronic ballasts are so widely talked about in Reef circles that it has almost become a generic term.

Electronic ballasts are a big step up in both $$$ and features. Where magnetic ballasts need to be matched with the lighting used, electronics can run just about any fluorescent up to their rated capacity. Magnetic ballasts limit current by turning it into heat. Not so with an electronic. They run much cooler and are more energy efficient. They also allow dimming circuits to be used, which is not the case with magnetic.

Are they worth the extra bucks? Well if you are the type that likes to change things around a lot then you want electronic as they are so much more versatile. If you are the type that pretty much knows that the lights they have now will be the same in the future, then the cheaper magnetic may be the best. An exception to that rule is on very large tanks. Here the energy savings from the electronics may pay off in the long run.

When purchasing a ballast it is best if it can be placed in a location remote from the canopy. This helps prevent buildup of heat in tank. Since not all ballasts allow remote mounting you need to ask before you buy. Remote mounting of a ballast not designed for such a purpose can cause meltdown, or worse, a fire.

There is another type of fluorescent used in the Hobby. You've probably seen them where they are sold as energy saving substitutes for home incandescent bulbs. Many looking like an ice cream cone they are called Power Compacts or PCs for short. For a tank they are usually U-shaped tubes looking more like the neon tubes of the local beer sign than there bigger brothers. PCs come in different sizes, from little 6" nine watters to 34" ninety-six watters. Recently they have shown up in higher and higher K values. They also claim to have "true actinic" tubes these days a claim PC actinics could not make in the past. They have a special socket which comes in two styles. A 4 pin in-line and a 4 pin square design. Make sure you get the bulbs that match your sockets when ordering. Ballasts run either type.

Advantages of the PC are, of course, they take up less space and claim more light per watt than the T12 tubes. Some people, like me, find their light less pleasing than a VHO and prefer the latter. Again these need special magnetic ballasts and not too many people go that route, choosing electronic instead. In their favor there are lower cost electronic ballasts available to run them. They are really god sent for those that have small nano tanks where a T12 would be far too large.

Just coming into vogue are the T5 lamps these are a cross between the T12 and PC. They look like a T12 but are only 5/8ths of an inch, rather than an inch and a half. Their advantage again is that being thinner they take up less room and they claim to provide more illumination per watt used. Color rendition is also closer to a T12 than a PC, which may be an advantage. Unlike the T12 and T8, they use a smaller pin connector and cannot use the same sockets. There is considerable talk about them on the lighting forum. It would be worthwhile to read about them over there if you are considering them.

Well on to MH next session.
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  #80  
Old 11/08/2003, 01:30 AM
Arachnidacolyte Arachnidacolyte is offline
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just a note to every one about lighting real quick,

while skimming the most recent chaper on lighting i saw something that caught my eye. and ive learned 2 lessons.

1. its best to read the entire post.

2. neon beer signs are not good reef light sources

3. beer and reefs dont mix either.

did i say 3 or 2 lessons. well never mind.

keep writing waterkeeper and ill keep drinking uh..err...reading...*hic*

  #81  
Old 11/10/2003, 10:44 AM
WaterKeeper WaterKeeper is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Arachnidacolyte
beer and reefs dont mix either.
Now you tell me. I was wondering why my fish had such big bellies.

I'll get to MH lighting in the next day or two.
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  #82  
Old 11/30/2003, 04:03 PM
dmiannay dmiannay is offline
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Tom,

Your contributions to this hobby are invaluable! Looking very forward to your continuation of this thread, especially your treatment of MH lighting!

I hope your holidays have been enjoyable!
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  #83  
Old 11/30/2003, 04:17 PM
mike4271 mike4271 is offline
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Doug I totally agree, and believe it or not was just thinking about bumping this thread, I appreciate Tom may be busy, but I dont think he realizes how many of us look foreward to the posts on this thread
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  #84  
Old 12/01/2003, 04:35 PM
WaterKeeper WaterKeeper is offline
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Gentle Reader,

I see from my 11/10 posting that I'm supposed to discuss MH in a couple of days. I'm really sorry but my mind is slipping fast and I forgot all about it. Now mental health is something that eludes most serious reefers. Just a glimpse through the manic-depressive ranting in any RC forum proves the point. My own meandering posts are a symptom of the paranoia that is so common to this hobby.

Whoops--just saw in my post above and that is MH LIGHTING I want to talk about.

Never mind.

Ok, the heavy metal of reef tank lighting is Metal Halide lighting. These little babies pack in some serious lighting wallop in a small space. Now metal halide has been around for awhile. Also know as HID (high intensity discharge) lamps; they probably caught on with the type of reefers that grow plants in their basement. Actually, in a less romantic vain they were developed for film projector lamps and and billboard lighting, amongst other uses.

In the earlier days of reefing MH bulbs where available with higher K values sooner than VHO, probably because their intended use required a whiter light than florescent. If you wanted bright, high K lighting then MH was the way to go. This benefit of a bright light source in a compact area still makes them popular.

Fluorescent lights spread their illumination in a even fashion along the entire length of the tube. Metal halides provide a point source of intense illumination from a single location, similar to the sun. Higher K MH bulbs still appear to be whiter/bluer than VHO bulbs of similar K values, mainly due to limitations in the phospors. Because they are a point source, they produce diffraction bands, glimmer/glitter lines, when the light passes through ripples on the surface of the tank. Probably their only drawback is they get very hot. I've been informed by people who know more about lighting than I that this is something of an illusion. Just like fluorescent spread the light over a wide area they do the same with the heat they produce. This makes them seem cooler watt for watt although they produce almost the same heat as an MH. I'm also told that the brilliance of MH vs. VHO is apparent because the point source appears brighter than the spread out light pattern of VHO.
All this adds up to the fact that choosing fluorescent over MH is more a matter of preference than actual benefit of one type of illumination over the other.

People with all VHO lighting successfully keep many of the same corals as those with all MH. That is why fence straddlers, like me , use a mix of both.

Now MH lights come in two main flavors. The first is the single ended or mogul base. These use a screw-in socket like an incandescent lamp. These lamps have a bulb within a bulb design. The inner bulb is the actual light and the outer bulb serves as a heat an UV shield. The other type is the double ended or HQI (high quartz iodide) bulb. These bulbs are more like a fluorescent having connectors at each end and they don't have a outter shield like the single ended.

Very Important!!! MH bulbs emit short wave UV radiation. Looking at an unshielded bulb can cause severe eye damage. Exposure of bare skin to some unshielded bulb for a prolonged period can cause burns.

I don't mean to scare you but I do want you to realize there is some danger involved in using MH, especially the the double ended that don't have a shield. It is important to note also that lime soda glass is an effective barrier to short wavelength UV radiation while high quartz glass is not. Plastic, unless specially coated, is also UV transparent. When using MH always have proper shielding on the hood.

What's that? No, suntan lotion is not a good idea in your tank. It overworks the skimmer

Now, just like a florescent, MH lights need a ballast to run. It serves the same purpose as a florescent ballast, that is, to provide the initial kick to start the bulb and to limit the current flowing to the bulb once it lights. In MH ballasts there are two types of starters. The first is a probe start ballast. Lamps that use this type ballast have a third filament in the lamp that is used to initially start the lamp. The second type is called a pulse start. Here the ballast provides a high energy pulse when first turned on to ignite the lamp then drops down to the operating current after ignition. One needs to make sure that the lamps you buy are the same type your ballast will run. These ballasts also come in magnetic and electronic varieties. The electronic in some cases will run either type of starting systems. They are also more compact than their rather bulky magnetic brethren.

I'm out of time for today but we'll finish up with MH and discuss how we go about mounting our lights next time, which I promise won't take 3 weeks.
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  #85  
Old 12/08/2003, 01:25 PM
WaterKeeper WaterKeeper is offline
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Well I know someone will ask about it so---No, I have no idea on how many watts per fish those glow-in-the-dark zebra fish put out.

Anyhow back to MH. I was talking about ballasts and the pulse start vs. probe start. The double ended bulbs, HQI, also have ballasts specifically designed to run them. J.R., aka electic130, was not shot so bad on Dallas that he couldn't provide some info on MH ballasts. Here is a link to his thread on the subject--MH Ballasts.

It is also handy to see some comparison pictures Joe, JB NY, has a nice series of pics in his thread MH comparison pictures

Both of the above threads provide a wealth of information on MH lighting and humble my attempts to shed light on this complex subject.

As with fluorescent, I strongly recommend that your ballasts be remotely located from your hood. If you use a magnetic ballast with MH you probably have no choice as they are much bigger than fluorescent ballasts. The electronic type can be in a hood but they do give off some heat and they are also easy prey for humidity damaging them in that location.

A couple of things if your are making your own hood. Fluorescents can be mounted just above the water surface. Because they get so hot, you need to have some standoff distance for MH. This is usually about 8" from the water surface. This need to have a standoff distance between the bulbs and the water does have some effect on using MH. Try this. Take a flashlight and take about two steps back from the wall and shine the flashlight on it, observing the beam size. Now take another two steps back and observe the increase in the size of the beam. If you measured it you would find that it covers four times the area even though the distance only doubled. Also, since the flashlight didn't increase its brightness the amount of light per unit area is only a forth of what is was. This distance effect is an important consideration in any tank lighting scheme.

If your hood is wood or plastic you want some space between the hood and bulb or you may start a fire. Having a little fireproof insulation between the hood and reflector is not a bad idea.

It is usually a good idea with VHO, but a must with MH, to include some cooling fans into a MH hood. Most places that sell ballasts will have fans or you can buy the type that are used on computers. They are low cost and fairly reliable. For the latter you'll need a 12 volt power supply to run them.

Having a good reflector is also important. To get the most light energy into your tank a quality reflector is worth the extra few bucks. Reflectors come in two distinct varieties depending on what you want to do. If you savor the very directional light you get from MH then a polished aluminum type is best. On the other hand, if you like a more diffuse light, a white mat reflector is what you need. Again, if you check around the Lighting and DIY forums you will find info on reflector materials and design.

Next installment we have VHO vs. MH in a battle to the death.
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  #86  
Old 12/15/2003, 05:14 PM
Radicaljbr Radicaljbr is offline
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Have you ever thought about writing a book? Or have you already done so? You are truly filled with great knowledge.

thanks for the info

John
  #87  
Old 12/15/2003, 08:10 PM
Radicaljbr Radicaljbr is offline
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I just got done reading this entire posting, how wonderful!! I do have a question if I may. I have a 105 gallon tank, which is 29" tall. I have PC lighting which includes 2- 65 watt Actinicand 2-10,000K 65 watts. This is what my LFS told I needed and that it was all I needed for a reef tank. But, your saying if I want to put anenomes in it, which I do, I will need about 840 watts. If I am adding this right, I have 260 watts. So I really need to buy 2 more of these PC? Then I would have 3 lighing housing units, I can not fit 3 in there. How would I do this?

thanks again for all your great info.

John
  #88  
Old 12/15/2003, 08:36 PM
catdoc catdoc is offline
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Great thread! Thanks!
  #89  
Old 12/15/2003, 10:14 PM
FLpatty FLpatty is offline
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Quote:
"they probably caught on with the type of reefers that grow plants in their basement. "

Would that make them reefer smokin' reefers?

Sorry, couldn't resist.

This is an awesome thread. Thanks for the FAB advice. I live in Tampa FL. Can't I just go to the beach for live sand?
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  #90  
Old 12/15/2003, 10:25 PM
yzthumpa yzthumpa is offline
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I too just got finished reading this entire thread and all of its links, and I'm truly amazed. While I'm just a week or so into my initial research and am in the "plan before I buy" stage, I just learned more in the past hour than I have in the past week. I'm looking at a 90 gal with 140# of live sand, 90# of live rock, and seeded water. I want a reef tank but am just starting my research on the different types of corals, etc. The LFS wants to put 4x110W VHO (2 white, 2 blue). The formula would tell me this is insufficient. I'd like to avoid having to go to metal halides thought. What's the verdict? Is a 5x110W feasible or would that not usually fit in a canopy for a 90 gal?
  #91  
Old 12/16/2003, 03:05 PM
bluefossil bluefossil is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by WaterKeeper

Next installment we have VHO vs. MH in a battle to the death.
Can you also include T-5 in the battle royale too?
  #92  
Old 12/16/2003, 08:47 PM
wsg wsg is offline
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great thread Thanks for taking the time for us starting out
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  #93  
Old 12/17/2003, 12:12 PM
WaterKeeper WaterKeeper is offline
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Hi wsg

To Reef Central

And I'm glad so many of you enjoy this thread.

John,

Currently there is some debate over on the Team RC forum about light and anemones. I have never been successful with anemones myself and always attributed my failure in keeping them to insufficient lighting. However, there are people that say they have maintained them with as little as 4 watts per gallon. The debate is still raging and eventually there is supposed to be a FAQ out on anemones. The wheels of TRC move exceedingly slow; as does the WaterKeeper..

I do feel that anemones are a poor choice for the new reefer. It is best to get a little experience under ones belt, as they are very fragile critters. Also, one dying in your tank can be a very bad experience as there is usually a very large ammonia spike following ones demise. They can nuke the entire tank.

With the PC lights you should be able to squeeze in more bulbs into the hood, as they don't take up that much room. You do need to do some wiring but it is not that hard. Also, you might consider going to a 96 watt lamp if you can handle the 33.5" length.

yz,

Same in your case, with a little creative wiring you can add an additional VHO. Unless you plan on keeping critters than require the higher lighting you may be fine with what you have.

bluefossil,

T-5 is fluorescent lighting, just a thinner tube. It is currently only available in HO but I hear VHO is soon to show up.

And all of you want to check out the lighting forum on any lighting plan. This thread just scratches the surface.

I have to go X-mas shopping this afternoon but I'll try to get more into this thread before Santa arrives.
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  #94  
Old 01/04/2004, 09:13 AM
dbroome dbroome is offline
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Boy, you must have been stuck at the mall for a LONG time
  #95  
Old 01/05/2004, 11:39 AM
WaterKeeper WaterKeeper is offline
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dbroome,

Its those darned elves in the gift wrap department. They're soooo slow.

Actually, as in any thread on lighting, I had to make a table to show how VHO and MH match up. It took all my time over the holidays to make it.


Table 1
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  #96  
Old 01/05/2004, 12:00 PM
pbs911 pbs911 is offline
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And that would be an illustration of the white background used for a diffussed look to the fauna when placed in close proximity. LOL. Seriously, where do you get green grass like that in Ohio this time of year?

Great thread, keep it coming!
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  #97  
Old 01/05/2004, 02:38 PM
Radicaljbr Radicaljbr is offline
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Great table!! I too live in Ohio, but in the NE. Our grass here is covered by this white stuff that fell from the sky. Any way to clear it up? It is kind of like my milky white clouded tank right now.

John
  #98  
Old 01/06/2004, 11:44 AM
WaterKeeper WaterKeeper is offline
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I export the nitrates and phosphates from my tank out to the grass and don't add as much KW as you in Northern Ohio.

I tried to post this continuation on the lighting yesterday but after the lame table joke RC banned me from posting the rest of the day. Here goes--

Heck Newbie, How do you ever expect to keep a reef tank without MH lighting? Or, MH light will bleach your corals and they’ll all die!

Sound familiar. You bet. All as I can say is---

HOGWASH!!!!!

There are thousands of reefers out there that have very nice tanks without any MH. Some even keep clams under VHO. People with about a zillion watts per gallon of MH lights have beautiful tanks of coral.

As often happens newer technology often gets elevated to such a status that older technology is swept to the wayside. This is most unfortunate as sometimes the newest technology only offers marginal improvement over the old. IMO this is true of MH vs. fluorescent lighting. Both can serve the same purpose, either alone, or in concert with each other.

Claims for MH say it is much more intense but in reality this is more of a visual illusion. When you compare overall output per watt of MH to VHO there is not that great of a difference. MH bulbs are a point source and appear brighter than the diffuse effect from a fluorescent tube. Also, as MH bulbs need to be mounted further from the water surface any extra intensity is offset by the standoff height.

MH bulbs last longer than fluorescent is another claim. Not so much these days as improved phosphors have made most fluorescents have about a year of useful life. MH bulbs age too. The process is somewhat different as some of the internal filament is sputtered off and then condenses on the relatively cooler quartz tube. This reduces output and changes spectral output. Again, improvements have been made in MH design and they too can last a year or more.
Spectral output of the two varies with K value and can differ greatly from bulb to bulb. If you go to the Sylvania-Osram site they have graphs of the spectral output of all their bulbs and they tend to keep them updated. If you notice in their graphs, a 6500K daylight fluorescent has a spectrum which covers almost the entire visible light range. This is not a special aquarium bulb but a normal daylight fluorescent.

One of the problems with making tables of bulb outputs and spectra is that it changes with time. Advances in the bulbs make any data over a year old someone outdated. Also, very few people that compare bulbs do so with bulbs that have been run a month or two. A bulb that shows superior output when brand new may have mediocre output a few months later.

An argument for fluorescents is that they are cooler than MH. However, just like MH appear brighter than VHO because they are a point source, they also appear hotter for the same reason. The VHO just spreads the heat out over a large area.

I don't have the resources to buy a bunch of bulbs and test them all in proper fashion. Also, such data would be quickly dated. Therefore, at the risk of being told it has no scientific value, I declare there is no clear winner. A good tank can be maintained with either.

What is important is having enough light and placing your most light hungry creatures closest to it. I myself use a combination of MH and VHO in larger tanks and use straight fluorescent, either PC or VHO, on smaller tanks. T-5 would be satisfactory here as well.

Boy, how is that for a cop out.

Oh, one more word on heat for you people that plan a tank with lighting that will eliminate the need for street lights around your home. Tanks up to around 150 gallons and running up to 8 watts per gallon can usually get by without a chiller. Tanks over 150 have less external surface area to water volume and don't radiate heat to the atmosphere as fast. So the bigger the tank the more likelihood you will need a chiller. A major cost consideration in any lighting decision.

Well that’s it for today. I’ll wrap up lighting REAL soon.
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  #99  
Old 01/06/2004, 05:54 PM
FLpatty FLpatty is offline
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they banned you for that table joke?

I thought it was funny!
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  #100  
Old 01/08/2004, 10:42 AM
WaterKeeper WaterKeeper is offline
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Hi FLpatty

Not really Patty. RC is switching servers and it poses a threat to the Empire. They keep attacking from cyberspace and it sometimes causes a divergence in the Force. During those attacks you may get the dread "Server Timed Out" or similar message. As a good Padawan learner you must be patient and post latter in the space-time continuum.
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