cycling

fio1022 · #1 09/05/2004, 04:32 PM

I'm Planning on stocking my first reef tank soon.If I am going to be putting in fully cured rock does it need to cycle or can I start to stock the tank?How long should I wait or should I wait at all?
thanks in advance.

Larry Waughon · #2 09/05/2004, 04:56 PM

Has your tank itself cycled yet?

JumboShrimp · #3 09/05/2004, 05:07 PM

You put the rock in, if its fully cured, it wont work. Everything needs to cycle first... toss in an UNCOOKED shrimp in and let it decay in there for a few days... That ammonia should be enough to kcik start your cycle. Once your cycle is done... Then go ahead and stock.... Bur it has to cycle first

Strandedthinker · #4 09/05/2004, 05:46 PM

Try searching for a thread titled tank maturity issues, an excellent read. But if you choose to skip over it then I will say some brief things: Many people assume a tank is cycled when Nitrites and Ammonia is 0, Nitrate differing between people. Now, all this means is that there is a bacteria buildup sufficient to sustain the tank as is. As more bioload is added the bacteria will increase until it reaches a point and then stays steady. Unfortunately this cycle is sometimes viewed as the only cycle and people assume that there tank is ready for some fish and corals. You see, fish and corals are on the top of the food chain in our tanks, deserving the name Climax Species. These climax species depend on a source of food which goes into an endless cycle of one foods prey needing prey. Imagine it as trying to build a pyramid with a weak base, not a good idea. Therefore we have to wait for a cycle of alga, lower level organims, etc... until we finally have a sufficient base for our top. Hope that helps.

flycut · #5 09/05/2004, 06:26 PM

Even adding cured rock to a cycled tank causes a mini cycle.

fio1022 · #6 09/05/2004, 08:35 PM

Thanks for the input,I had a feeling it needs to cycle to some degree but how much?I did not buy the rock yet but was wondering how much of a cycle I will get out of fully cured rock.If it is fully cured I wouldn't think that there would be much.

Strandedthinker · #7 09/05/2004, 09:11 PM

Some say proper cycling is waiting a year, but I doubt many reefers have that sort of patience. I would go with 3 months. Good enoough time for a more solid base and troubleshooting

brad23 · #8 09/05/2004, 10:30 PM

so how does the tank cycle is there's nothing in other than a dead shrimp. Will the shrimp alone cause the tank cycle if there isn't a filter in it.

Strandedthinker · #9 09/05/2004, 10:45 PM

There is a rag theory, basically stating bacteria will grow on anything. However if there is no where for the bacteria to grow, you effectivaly have no filtration.

brad23 · #10 09/05/2004, 10:52 PM

so your telling him to put a shrimp in based on a theory.

leheath · #11 09/05/2004, 10:58 PM

The shrimp will decompose and release ammonia, which will start the nitrogen cycle, assuming you have LR (which contains bacteria) in the tank. With uncured LR, the die-off from shipping does the same thing, but if you add fully cured rock, nothing will die, so there will be no ammonia, so the nitrogen cycle will not start. Without LR in the tank, adding a shrimp will not really do anything other than release ammonia as it decomposes...you need the bacteria in the LR to get the cycle going.

Hmm...I am not sure this is making things any clearer...

brad23 · #12 09/05/2004, 11:02 PM

ok so its a waste of time adding LR to a tank that cycleing. But if all you have is base rocks and sand in there, will good bacteria grow on them.

Art_Vandelay · #13 09/05/2004, 11:17 PM

Biological filtration is almost instant if u purchase high quality live rock. It will have the pink/purple coralline algae on it. Rock of this quality already has the bacteria colonies growing on it and fetches a lofty price around $10/lb. If u add a pound of rock plus a pound of live sand for every gallon of water you may have to wait only a week or two. However, at that point I would only add hearty soft corals (leathers, zoo's). You could also add a few hermit crabs and snails to help the cycle along, maybe even a starfish. I would recommend waiting a good 4-6 weeks before adding fish because u must remember that parasites could also be clinging to the rock, so you would not want to give the parasites any host (FISH) to grab on to and therfore they would die off. This is just my experience as i have set up three 3 sw tanks in the past year and 2 of them are flourishing reefs and the other is a parasite free fish only tank. But you know what. . . everyone is different and opinions will vary; that's why you need to keep doing what u r doing and that's asking advice and reading from a variety of sources. GOOD LUCK

Art_Vandelay · #14 09/05/2004, 11:21 PM

give me shout if i can help u out in any other way.

Art_Vandelay · #15 09/05/2004, 11:22 PM

a shout . . . lol

brad23 · #16 09/05/2004, 11:26 PM

ok I have another queston if you put cured live rock in why couldn't you add something straight away as there is already a good bacteria all over the rock to brake down the waste. Wouldn't the good bacteria start diying on the live rock if there's nothing for it to feed on?

JumboShrimp · #17 09/05/2004, 11:53 PM

Even if you get "Cured" live rock, there will most likey be some die off, causeing a mini-cylce...

AnemicOak · #18 09/06/2004, 12:35 AM

Where are you getting your "cured" LR? If it's from a LFS & can be kept in water you might not get any die off, but if it's being shipped there will be die off. Most places that deal in LR say that their cured LR will still need to cure again for 2-3 weeks.

bertoni · #19 09/06/2004, 01:17 AM

For a tank that's going to be filtered with live rock, "cycling" the tank mostly means waiting for the dead animals, etc, on it to rot away, leaving the tank with zero ammonia. Some also wait until nitrite and nitrate are zero.

If the live rock added to a tank is fully cured, you might not ever see much die off and the tank will show clean ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate from the start, IME.

It's worth waiting a few weeks at least to be sure that nothing in the live rock decides to die and spike the ammonia back up. There's a thread at the top of the coral forum on maturation issues that talks about why you might want to wait longer.

Personally, I would never add a dead shrimp to a tank, especially one with live rock. That can smell pretty bad, and the ammonia could kill more organisms in the live rock.

If you intend to run the tank on a wet-dry filter, the situation's different, but I'm assuming you're using live rock.

js_abattoir · #20 09/06/2004, 01:56 AM

If you trust that the LFS actually ran a decent curing process, like 3-4 weeks, then the rock/tank should only go through a mild cycle. Right? Mine came from the store after 3 weeks cycling and I watched and tested it for 2 weeks after that with virtually no change to the tank. I only had to make some water changes and it has been quite happy. My cleaning crew has taken up any and all slack from the residual chemical balance.

I was quite happy with this. I am sure that there are horror stories out there though.

bertoni · #21 09/07/2004, 09:36 PM

That sounds normal to me.

Art_Vandelay · #22 09/07/2004, 10:55 PM

i agree with js- that's why i said to add the crabs & snails so that the bacteria have some waste to feed on while u wait a week or two; u r correct in assuming the number of bacterial colonies would diminish without livestock for a period of a few weeks. Take things slow and be SURE that the rock is cured before making decisions. . .sometimes the best test is the sniff test. Rock that is not cured has a horrible smell of rotten eggs or sulfer.

bristopher · #23 09/07/2004, 11:51 PM

ok, i have a question. I am upgrading to a bigger tank. I want to cycle the new tank fresh. I was planning on taking out half my live rock i have in my current tank ( tank 2-years old) and add a couple of pieces of uncured rock to that to start the cycle. Will this work? Is there anything else I should be doing?

Once the cycle is complted I will add the rest of the live rock from current tank.

brad23 · #24 09/08/2004, 11:24 AM

ok so if I put live rock in thats been cured it will still go through a small cycle. Then what add some inverts like snails and crabs after a week or two to produce some more waste?

also I would be useing a bio filter that is on the eclipse three hood, so would it cycle faster.

Strandedthinker · #25 09/08/2004, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by brad23
so your telling him to put a shrimp in based on a theory.

You've taken what I have said out of context. I am merely stating that bacteria will efficitvely grow on any surface.

As to your last post:
The only rock that is fully cured is TBS, Tampa Bay Saltwater, because the rock never leaves the water and the bacteria sits in food. But that is all debatable. So unless you don't use their rock, you will probably get uncured. Again, its all dependent on handling procedure.

When you put in the inverts as you said they will produce waste, but their purpose is for establishing a structure in the food chain and for operating as janitors.

A biofilter will only provide for more bacteria housing. Cycling is dependent on two factors, rate of growth in bacteria (this includes nitrosomonas, nitrobater and etc...) and space for growth.