Lionfish Breeding In Atlantic Now?

[stevebydac]

A juvenile lionfish, which is native to the Pacific and Indian Oceans, was found by divers recently off the coast of the Bahamas, a sign that the venomous fish may now be breeding in the Atlantic Ocean, according to a spokesman from the New England Aquarium.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/mas...f_the_bahamas/

[XtrmCHoPZ]

Ive read stories about people finding them all the way up by NY!!!

[LauraCline]

I've also read several articles about this, I believe the popular opinion is that they have been released by ship ballasts and irresponsible aquariasts. I bet more than one ended up in the Atlantic when it got to big for someone's 55 gallon.

[bob saget]

I believe the most logical way these fish may be found in the atlantic is because the get caught in the gulf stream which extends all the way along the north coast. Even though the gulf stream is far off the coast when upwelling occurs in the summer these fish may be pushed into bays and estuaries.

[bubbaOPPD]

I read where they are already breeding in Tampa Bay, and have a pretty healthy population.

[stykthyn]

they have been breeding steadily now for nearly 10 years, the sightings aer becoming more and more common.

[Wolverine]

Originally posted by LauraCline
I've also read several articles about this, I believe the popular opinion is that they have been released by ship ballasts and irresponsible aquariasts. I bet more than one ended up in the Atlantic when it got to big for someone's 55 gallon.

Unfortunately I think the latter is the more common reason. The big problem is that it gives the anti-aquarium hobby groups one more piece of ammunition.

Originally posted by bob saget
I believe the most logical way these fish may be found in the atlantic is because the get caught in the gulf stream which extends all the way along the north coast.

And this would get them all the way from the Indo-Pacific? If this were the case, why wouldn't they already have been endemic? Why wouldn't we be seeing this with animals that are unpopular in the trade?

Dave

[Radar1]

I highly doubt aquarist were responsible for releasing enough lionfish to create a breeding population

[Radar1]

It does happen with animals unpopular in the trade we just dont here about it on RC.

[Mad Scientist]

Originally posted by Radar1
I highly doubt aquarist were responsible for releasing enough lionfish to create a breeding population

I agree - I think ship's ballasts are to blame. It's a huge problem though as these guys are nailing native fish - throwing off the whole balance and such.

I know a number of people that have seen them on NC and NY wrecks.

[anydarnthing]

I think if you research this you'll find that usually only invert's are transported in ships bilges. Most ships bilge pumps are screened so only invert larva are sucked in, and do you truelly believe a lionfish is going to survive a 1-3 month cruise from the the Indo-Pacific to the Atlantic off the coast of the US in a dark tank with no oxygen replenishing? Most freighters cruise at 10-20kts so its going to be a slow trip I know lions can go awhile without food but a month or more? Plus ships only intake water in the bilge when they have no cargo in the holds and in this economy a unloaded ship is drain on the bottom-line so you'll rarely see a ship unloaded. I think its someone who bought a lion and found out it gets huge and starts eating the other fish in the tank that the owner dumps him in the ocean. I you look it up you'll see people are mostly responsible for introducing foreign species...rabbits(Australia), rats(everywhere), mongoose(Hawaii), and many more including a breeding colony of Monk Parrots in most major US cities from birds escaping the pet trade(sound familiar?). I have seen bilge water, and if you think a fish that dies if ammonia get above 1-5ppm is going to survive for months in nasty black oily bilge-water then you need some more science classes.

[Wolverine]

Whether or not the bulk of the blame lies with the hobby or with shipping is semi-irrelevant.

The fact is, we're an easier target than the shipping industry. For one thing, no matter how big the hobby becomes, we will never have the kind of lobbying power to compare with shipping. More importantly, look at it from outside the hobby. If they come in on ships, it's an accidently by-product of what they do. If it's from us, it's from someone doing something stupid: intentionally releasing animals into a non-native setting.

We know for a fact that people in the hobby release animals into the wrong oceans. That's been discussed plenty here on RC (involving the people who admit to releasing the animals). It only takes two survivors to make a breeding population, and I'm sure many more than that have been released around the big cities on the coasts. I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of "freed" animals are released at a few choice spots, where someone knows there is healthy reef. I know I would look for that if I were taking this approach.

Dave

[Mad Scientist]

Originally posted by anydarnthing
I think if you research this you'll find that usually only invert's are transported in ships bilges. Most ships bilge pumps are screened so only invert larva are sucked in, and do you truelly believe a lionfish is going to survive a 1-3 month cruise from the the Indo-Pacific to the Atlantic off the coast of the US in a dark tank with no oxygen replenishing?.

I think both theories have some merit, but I think your post is way, way too strong......


http://csmonitor.com/2002/0322/p02s01-usgn.html

From the article:

"Related to this theory is the ballast-water concept, in which larvae or juvenile fish are trapped in ships moving from the Indo-Pacific to the East Coast and are then released into local waters when the ballast water is pumped out.

Donald Hoss, director of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration's Beaufort lab in North Carolina, says many species have been introduced to foreign ecosystems in this manner"

[Wolverine]

Originally posted by Mad Scientist
I http://csmonitor.com/2002/0322/p02s01-usgn.html

From the article:

"Related to this theory is the ballast-water concept, in which larvae or juvenile fish are trapped in ships moving from the Indo-Pacific to the East Coast and are then released into local waters when the ballast water is pumped out.

Donald Hoss, director of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration's Beaufort lab in North Carolina, says many species have been introduced to foreign ecosystems in this manner"

Be wary about using information from newspaper articles. If you talk to anyone who's been quoted in a newspaper more than a couple of times, you'll find that what they say and what ends up in the paper are often very, very different. It's even worse in a situation like this where it's not even claimed to be a direct quote from the person. The guy could have said anything from "we think a few species have been introduced" to "we have proof that thousands have been introduced". Reporters hear what they want to hear, and sometimes it has no relation to what was actually said.

Dave

[anydarnthing]

I'm not trying to come on strong since I was in the Navy and have seen bilge water and the Navy is a lot cleaner then most commercial freighters. I just don't see a lion surviving, I can see some other fish larva surviving but not lions since my Lions eyes start turning cloudy when ammonia becomes detectable in my tank. I know zebra mussel amd other bivalves have been transported this way but never heard of a fish as large and sensitive as a lion being transported in this manner. Also I think that most copper treatments discourage the use of copper in treating a lion and since seawater is corrosive and most owners of the ship don't want it to rust away they paint bilges with special heavy metal paints and place "sacrificial anodes" in the bilges which are usually made from copper based alloys.

[zemuron114]

They could do a mass lion collection campaign and try to get the numbers down. Are there any natural predators in the atlantic that eat lions??

[stevebydac]

This is similar to the problem faced on land with pythons, many of whom are now breeding in the southern US, particularly in swampy regions like the Everglades. The pythons are probably an even bigger problem, as they are top predators, rivalled probably only by crocs and cougars in those areas.

[Radar1]

If it were people responsible for releasing them, the gene pool should be pretty small and we would be seeing a lot of related fish. Have any studies been done on this.

[thor32766]

I have personally talked to the fish and game people here in florida, because they are my favorite fish. Beautiful. One of their main biologist, suggested hurricane andrew was a culprit for the lions appearing in the atlantic. They did research and found out literally hundreds of houses that sat on the coast had huge aquariums with a large number, having lionfish. They believed when the tides came in, the houses and aquariums were destroyed and out went the lions. He also said they had no reports of the lions until after the hurricane. i know it sounds crazy that is just one of their main theories for now.
Just thought i would share

[sunfishh]

Originally posted by thor32766
I have personally talked to the fish and game people here in florida, because they are my favorite fish. Beautiful. One of their main biologist, suggested hurricane andrew was a culprit for the lions appearing in the atlantic. They did research and found out literally hundreds of houses that sat on the coast had huge aquariums with a large number, having lionfish. They believed when the tides came in, the houses and aquariums were destroyed and out went the lions. He also said they had no reports of the lions until after the hurricane. i know it sounds crazy that is just one of their main theories for now.
Just thought i would share

Very interesting. Sounds like the most likely possibility.

As far as bilge water from ships is goes it is possible. Most marine fish have planktonic larva. These larva probally feed on other plankton which of course is also in the ship's water.

Although unlikely I think aquarist could also be to blame. If the first lion fish was released in 1970 then its been about 35 years of release. While it is unlikely that these fish are still alive they probally were around 10 years ago. Therefore up to 10 years ago the 1st released lion could breed with other released individuals. Also remember that as the marine hobbie increases in poplarity so does the number of released fish. This means each year the gene pool expands because new individuals are released and these new fish can also breed with our lion released in 1970. Plus as the years go by it is more and more likely that our first lion will encounter a mate. Any way food for thought

I think there is an upside you folks have missed. The aquarium industry now has a new source for lions. This means you could take every last one of these invaders and not effect the native population of their natural range. In other words you could preserve the population in say Tahiti by taking all of the lions off of Purto Rico. Plus the more lions you take the healther the environment becomes. It not a great situation, but it does have a silver lining.

[Bret61081]

Originally posted by stevebydac
This is similar to the problem faced on land with pythons, many of whom are now breeding in the southern US, particularly in swampy regions like the Everglades. The pythons are probably an even bigger problem, as they are top predators, rivalled probably only by crocs and cougars in those areas.

A few months Back here in Ft laud by the everglades, they found a python that had died while trying to eat a 5' croc! Just to show you the size of some of the animals we release in areas they don't belong!

There is a webpage from the FL fish and game where they had located several nonnative fish here in SOFL and were tracking them. some of them I can remember we anularis angels, shoal tang, yellow tangs, hippos just to name a few. I feel that during the hurricanes is when a lot of these fish do end up in the oceans. People who are uneducated about the hobby have no idea what to do when they are weeks without power and do what they think is "best for the fish" and let them go without thinking of the repercussions it can have on the environment.

[stykthyn]

NOAA will have a list of all non-native fish found in the atlantic and gulf of mexico.

[sideways]

Originally posted by thor32766
I have personally talked to the fish and game people here in florida, because they are my favorite fish. Beautiful. One of their main biologist, suggested hurricane andrew was a culprit for the lions appearing in the atlantic. They did research and found out literally hundreds of houses that sat on the coast had huge aquariums with a large number, having lionfish. They believed when the tides came in, the houses and aquariums were destroyed and out went the lions. He also said they had no reports of the lions until after the hurricane. i know it sounds crazy that is just one of their main theories for now.
Just thought i would share

This makes the most since because the first lions that were seen 10 years ago were all adults as far as I've heard. It wan't until a few years later that they started noticing gravid females and juveniles. If they came in ship's ballast water then we would have expected to have seen lots a juveniles before adults. There is also some speculations that a group of screwy dive shop operators in Florida were releasing them on a dive site with plans to draw visitors and they made their way north. A lot of tropicals from Florida and the Caribbean make their way up North through the Gulf stream so it makes since that they started in Florida and expanded their range. The fact is they're here to stay. NOAA does a lot of dive studies on them in the summer. They've gone down and wiped out every one on a wreck, to come back a week later and find just as many there as there were the week before. They're trying to find a natural predator, hoping that a grouper or something else will start taking them out. I don't know about you, but after I bit my first lionfish, I wouldn't try to eat anymore. By the way, I'm and aquarist for the NC Aquarium at Pine Knoll Shores and one of my exhibits there is a 1200 gallon exhibit dedicated to the volitan lions that are so numerous off our coast here in NC.

[stykthyn]

I don't know about you, but after I bit my first lionfish, I wouldn't try to eat anymore.

they are supposed to be a delicacy in the Indo-pacific area. I dont think that I could eat one either.

[thor32766]

hey sideways. i used to live in jacksonville. It was a little wierd to see the name swansboro, that had been awhile. But yeah i have seen them down here and damn that are so beautiful in the water.