I give up...on this ich issue

[chicki]

Well I give up trying to erradicate or worry about ich. I don't know what else I could have or can do. I left my reef/fish tank (180) totally fishless for 6 weeks. I reintroduced fish only after they had gone through 4 full weeks of hypo at 1.009 (with a salinity monitor) The powder brown has been in this tank for a couple weeks and I see some ich spots on him. I'm sure it's not sand or air bubbles (you can see the raised dots under the skin). I am at a loss how this can happen?
I guess from now on I will be one of these people that say "ich is always present in a tank"
I'm going to try to not worry about it, I feed all fresh good foods with garlic and zoe and selco......what else can a person do.

[john f]

In the 6 weeks the tank was fishless, did you add anything to the tank? Inverts, rock, corals?
What about water changes? How are these done? With shared or dedicated buckets?



John

[chicki]

I was very carefull and didn't share any equipment with any other tank. The only thing that I ever added during that time was a few corals. They came from a LF dealer that had separate water system for his corals and his fish. If by chance it came in on the corals, then it's nearly impossible to irradicate...as who is going to set up a 4-6 week quarantine tank specifically for corals?? (the lights they need and calcium etc.)
I now firmly believe that the tomites are capable of surviving without a host for much longer then 6 weeks. It's the only reasonable explaination that I can come up with??

[TerryB]

Chicki,
At 4 PM on 3/14 you stated that you used the correct salinity to treat with hypo. At 11:30 PM on 3/14 you stated that you had the salinity too high in another thread. You said the specific gravity was 1.011. WHich is true?
Terry B

[chicki]

Yes at first I did have it too high. I was going by my swinging arm testers. I had ordered a monitor and when it came I realized that the salinity was 1.011. I dropped it to 1.009 and started the timer over again.

[naesco]

please detail the garlic extract treatment you are using.
1. Product
2. How are you using it
3. How you are preparing the food.
4. How often
5. How long

[dgasmd]

Chiki:

I truly feel for you since I ran through the same dilemma and know how frustrating and enfuriating it is. I got over it and I'll tell you what I did. As you may remember, I ahve a 360 gal with a 100 gal sump, large aerofoamer, Ca reactor, and well over 100+ SPS frags, some of which look like little colonies now. I run my tank a bit hotter than most (80F baseline and up to 86F is allowed, although it mostly runs 80-84F with a 12 hour light cycle of 4x400 watt radiums), and salinity is 1.026. Shortly (6-8 weeks) after transplanting my old tank to this one, I ran went through a nasty cycle of marine velvet that decimated all but one of my fish. I waited 8 weeks and added 10 Green chromis. 4 died at some point over the next 3 weeks, but the other 6 are still doing well. I added a tang and it got ick right off the bat. To make the long story short, I went through everything one can think of short of treating the reef tank since anyone with a large tank will tell you that removing a kidney with a spoon via the rectum is easier than getting a fish out of a tank this big full of corals and rocks. I seeked adviced in many places and all came down to the same: hyposalinity, garlic, cooper.

I then was talking to a couple of people I know off the board that have large tanks with tons of fish and mostly if not all SPS corals. Come to find out they at some point were having the same problem with the fish even though their corals were thriving. They decided to give a crazy idea a try and added a UV filter to the system. Would you know the ick went away within a couple of weeks, the corals are doing jsut as good or better, and the fish is very healthy. Some of these are the internet frag shop guys and some are people you and I drool over their tanks like Ivy64, who happens to be tank of the month right now here in RC. I set up a 40 watt UV unit I already had laying around and it worked like a mirarcle for me as well. My corals are growing like there is no tomorrow and everything is just as good as it can get. The trick with these UV units is to have one large enough for your system and that has the appropriate flow rate. Most units are too little and most have a flow rate too fast to allow the best contact time. The truth is mine is undersized, but I couldn't afford to buy a new one at the time. It has worked fine, so I left it as is. I am moving in about a year, so I will redo the entire thing and it will include upgrading the UV to about 80 watts if money allows.

I know the above experiences may not be the best for everyone and that most people advocate not using UV filters in reef tanks, but it has worked for me and others. I realize the corals need live food too, but they seem to be doing just fine on cadavers for now. I may at some point when I am done adding fish to the system (a black tang, an emperator angel, and 10 anthias are left to be added and the yellow tang to be removed) put the UV on a timer to be on during day time only and then off during the night when I may set up a culture of rotifers to be dosed. It is just future day dreaming for now.

Hope this helps some if anything to confuse you more.
Alberto

[jackel55]

Listen, I know how you feel. I have been RELIGIOUS about quarantining all new fish 3-6 wks. Most of my fish, while in QT, were also proactively treated with hypo or Rid-ich even if they appeared healthy, just to be sure they had no ich.

3 months after adding my powder brown to the main tank, he developed ich and the whole tank suffered ich with some fish also developing fin rot. So much for the effectiveness of QT'ing.

The solution was a 36w UV sterilizer. I don't care what people say about UV, but UV _WORKS_. The fin rot disappeared after 2 days and the ich vanished after 1 week. Since it was a reef tank, I had no other option. Tearing down the tank to catch the elusive fish wasn't not an option.

I now consider UV a requirement for tanks with ich-prone fish like tangs. IMO it is no less important than heaters, live rock, or thermometers for keeping a tank.

Get yourself a UV. I found it worked better than a Q tank. Make sure it's sufficiently large for your tank and the flow rate is appropriate. The mfr ratings are usually wrong.

[jackel55]

dgasmd - I just saw your post and it echos my experience (re: UV). Those things are life-savers (literally).

I don't recommend you run your UV on a timer, as it wears out the bulb fast. They are very expensive as you probably know.

It's better to run them for several days, then leave them off for several days, etc. Or, some folks leave them off entirely until the first sign of trouble or if they add new fish.

[chicki]

Thanks everyone. When I had my system hooked up I had a 25W UV unit plumbed in. When I had my first bout of ich I had it running full time and still lost half my fish, it seemed all the one's that survived we're the one's that went to the cleaning stations and let the shrimp clean them. I hadn't thought the UV unit had done anything? but after reading your posts I plugged mine back in. I have a timer on it as well and had heard that keeping it on at night was the best?? any opinions on this or should I just leave it on steady. I don't care about replacing the bulb if thats what's needed. I just don't know why it would help this time if it didn't help last time?
The part I don't understand is that EVERYTHING I have read (and believe me I've read lots) they all say that ich needs a host to survive. Most recommend 4 weeks of a fishless tank to erradicate it...why then did mine survive a 6 week fishless tank?? I also upped the temperature a bit (83) to help the parasite go through it's life cycle quicker.
I really thought that if I did all this...especially the quarantine and not just normal quarantine..but hypo for 4 weeks on every fish that I'd be safe. ?? why wouldn't I be???

[anthem]

pretty sure it did not survive the hostless tank. Pretty sure it wasn't completely eradicated during hypo. Did you restore to normal salinity for 2 weeks after 3 wks of hypo ?

[chicki]

The main tank was totally fishless for 6 full weeks. The fish were in hypo 1.009 for 4 full weeks.

[anthem]

yes,but you took a dew weeks to get to the correct level (1.009)... after you completed hypo, you should bring the tank back to nsw levels and monitor for several more weeks. you should not just drop them back into the tank after a few days of bringing back to nsw.. its almost certainly a case of not holding the s.g low enough during hypo as 6wks hostless is also almost certainly good enough.

and to your question of quarantine of non-fish like inverts, yes many do - and yes the setup is configured to handle stress, lighting, etc... i would never dream of putting lr, etc into my tank w/o a few weeks of quarantine... i also quarantine fish for usually two months prior to introduction.

[john f]

"they all say that ich needs a host to survive. "

IT DOES!!!!!

But you ADDED corals to the tank during the 6 weeks that were not quarantined.
These probably had some tomonts on the rock foundations, and hence, crypto was re-introduced to your system.

It is possible to have an ICH-free system.
I know cause I have one, although the work required to achieve it is no easy matter.




John

[chicki]

John, did you quarantine every coral that you added? do you still? you mean you set up a entire other system with proper lights etc. for your corals?
thanks

[john f]

Yes, and no.

I have a 46 bowfront setup as a coral/invert QT system.
400 watt halide, skimmer, DSB, a little live rock.

I only QT corals that have been mixed with newly imported fish.
This would be ANY coral from your LFS, no matter if they keep them seperate from fish or not ( unless they seperate them for 2 weeks with no new additions...not likely)

I DO NOT QT unmounted coral frags. These have no attachement sites for cryptocaryon. I also don't QT larger acro heads, etc IF they have no rock base for tomont attachment.

The amount of time spent in QT depends to me on the circumstances. Corals from unknown sources get 3 weeks. Corals from good sources held fishless get 2 weeks, and of corse unmounted frags get no QT.

6 weeks fishless is really not needed IMO.
2-3 weeks at temps over 80 degrees will be enough in my experience.




John

[chicki]

Well I guess thats how I reinfected my tank. It must have been the few corals or some liverock. It's weird though, because the LFS says that the water system for his corals and rock is separate from the fish system.

[john f]

"because the LFS says that the water system for his corals and rock is separate from the fish system."

That may be true. BUT................

He gets new corals in every week probably. These come from who knows where and are stored with who knows what with regards to newly imported fish.


The way the cryptocaryon life cycle works, a newly imported coral could have some tomonts on its rock base. Then about the time the coral gets into your tank ( say, two weeks from the time it aquired the tomonts ) they hatch and infect your tank. If you had waited say 3 weeks after adding the new corals before adding the fish, you would be OK.


John

[TerryB]

John is right. Ich Tomonts can attach to any hard surface including corals, equipment, and glass. The vast majority of probelms will be avoided by just quaranting the fish. However, as an added safey measure you can quarantrine inverts and live rock. The last time that I had ich in a reef it was from buying a couple of corals out of a tank that had fish in it. When I saw ich in my tank I went back to the LFS and saw thier tank was then infected. The fish didn't have any spots when I bought the corals but ich broke out at the LFS and my tank at the same time.
Terry B

[dgasmd]

So much good info. This is why this place is so good.

Chicki:

Again, I don't advocate UV to everyone, but since it is not only this one episode but the others I have read from you loosing fish to diasease, it is something to try. Remember, UV filters need very slow flows through them to be effective. It may take several days for things to get better and you may even loose some more animals in the meantime. I also highly encourage you to get s couple of cleaner wrasses and at least a pair of cleaning shrimps. The truth is that I ahve both and the cleaner shrimps most ahve been the rejects from cleaning school because they don't do anything! The cleaner wrase actually do spend the day cleaning stuff off the fish. They only cost me like $8/each. I also use garlic soaked foods, but to be honest with you the only thing I thinki it does is to stink up the food even more.

Johnf is right about the quarintine issues. With me in particular, it will be extremely hard and next to impossible to set up an extra tank to do it right for everything coming into my tank. It is the thing to do, but I seriously doubt I will do it anytime soon for numerous personal reasons.

Alberto

[chicki]

well, I'm at it again. I have removed the fish and put them in 1.009 hypo tank. I WILL NOT ADD anything to the tank! I'll do this for 4 weeks (not 6 this time) and we'll see if it works. I guess I'll quarantine all corals and rocks that I get in the future in my 40 or 20's. I wish a freshwater dip to them would work, it would be a lot easier. I don't have much for lights on the QT's.
Thanks guys, I guess in the future we should be telling people that not only is quarantining fish is a must but also corals and rocks etc. It's just not something that anyone really pushed before...and I thought I was safe by just quarantining my fish.
thanks again
cheers

[TerryB]

It usually is safe enough to just quarantine the fish, but there are exceptions. I wish the LFS would keep thier live rock and inverts in systems that do NOT share water with other tanks that contain fish. That would help simplify things. I look to buy my inverts and live rock from the few dealers that keep them seperate from fish.
Terry B

[chicki]

Terry, If you read this whole thread you'll see that my LFS does keep a totally separate system for his liverock and corals. It still doesn't help if there are tomites are on that rock from the previous place.

[sting310]

Hi, I am going thru an ich battle myself... I have a 70 gallon tank with about 12 pcs of live rock, cleaner shrimp, peppermint shrimp, feather duster, and 4 firefish... well, the firefish developed ich after a week, and have had it for around a week and a half. I have been treating with Chem-marine Stop Parasites, Coral Vital and Garlic. The spots go away for a while only to re appear... the fish are fine, eating active, ect....

doesnt saltwater ich destroy the tank like
freshwater ich? I mean if freshwater ich was left be it would cover the fish and they would be gasping at the top, or lying on the bottom......

this is most confusing... I have two coralife 9w UV units that are rated to support 125 gallons each... I could hook those up, but the chem marine says not to use one when using that product.......

I have purchased a 20 gallon tank for quarantine, but I dont relish chasing 4 very fast firefish around a well decorated tank.......I need advice bad! please help!

Thanks!