Ich and when to perform hyposalinity

[liusteven]

Hello All,

Can anyone tell me when I should begin hyposalinity? I am trying to use some natural (garlic) ingredients to see if the ich would go away!! here is my story....

I have a 125 gal F.O. tank and have 4 fishes: Regal tang, Val tang, Personifer Angel and a MI....

Just a few days ago I noticed that my regal tang is scratching himself against my live rock.. last night I saw him scratching himself more against the rock and then I spoted some white spots on his body (near the tail end)... I also think my Personifer also has it (saw some very small spots on him)...

I have my UV 5 watts light turned on and started to feed them garlic soaked food. I can borrow a much larger UV sterlizer (double helix) if needed.. Can a strong UV kill the ich on the fish?? I'm also afraid that hyposlaiinity might kill some of my delicate fish (MI)...

Can anyone please help me!!

I do not have a secondary tank and trying to avoid copper in my system...

- ecosystem (macro Algae)
- 80 punds LR
- 4 inch live sand


Thanks so much

Steve

[ahhdui]

Sorry to hear. Battling ick can take some time.

Can a strong UV kill the ich on the fish?
--> It will not kill the ich on the fish. It only kills what is floating around in the water.

I do not have a secondary tank and trying to avoid copper in my system...
--> Find out what is causing the fish to get ich in the first place. Test you water params to make sure everything is good. If everything is good, feed it a good diet by adding selcon/zoecon and garlic extract in it's food. Give that a try few a few days to see if the ich pops off. Also doesn't hurt to have the UV running.

Since you have live rocks and live sand, do hyposalinity is really Not an option. Simply because it will kill all the little critters and invertibrates. If you do decide to do hypo, please consider getting another tank.

--Tony

[liusteven]

Thanks Tony.. I think I know what caused this Ich outbreak... I bought a Copper band and after 2 weeks it died... was very picky on food and my tang did not give him a chance

Anyways, my water parameters are ok and I have always added ZOE, ZOECON and garlic extract with frozen foods (mysis shrimp, Forumla 1 & 2, and Nori) for about 3 weeks now and the fishes still got ich!!!

In the past I hav used Kent garlic extract and now I bought Garlic Elixir from ecosystem... Last night I squeezed some fresh garlic and soaked mysis shrimp in it and feed them in the morning... hopefully this will cure this epidemic!!!

If this does not work should I use "NO ICH" ?


Does "No ICH" or "Rally from ruby reef" really work?

[TerryB]

Its OK to try the garlic route but it is actually a better preventative than a cure for ich. There are only two proven consistently reliable treatments for ich: copper and hyposalinity. All other treatments are hit or miss at best. Neither of them can be used with LR, LS, Inverts, sharks, or rayfish.
Quarantine tanks are really not optional in this hobby. Every responsible hobbyist should have one. You can use a large rubbermaid garbage can with a heater, some PVC pipe and a sponge filter for biological filtration. Hypo is by far the best method but you do need a very accurate means of measuring the salinity and check the pH and alk daily adding a buffer as needed.
Terry B

[maroun.c]

Terry: why can't you use copper or hyposalinity on sharks or rayfish?

[liusteven]

Thanks for the info... I heard some people like "kick Ich" its a herbal cure.. which is 80% pure garlic extract... I think I will try that for a week and see if my tang and angel improves!

Any suggestions?

[TerryB]

Kick Ich is not a herbal remedy and does not contain garlic extract. You will need more than Kick Ich of that is what you use, you will need some luck to go with it. I tested Kick Ich at the maker's request. I arrangened for several LFS to get the product from them and try it. The results were mixed at best and disapointing.
You cannot use hypo with sharks and rays because they have a diffferent osmoregulatory strategy than bony fish and thier normal internal salinity level is different.
Terry B

[ahhdui]

Steve,

Kick ICH is a 50/50 thing (works for some people). A friend of mines used it and his whole tank crashed (ammonia and nitrite spike).

Like all the other advises, you need to get a hold of a Q tank or even a food safe plastic containers and threat with hypo or copper.

Anyway, good luck and let us know how it goes.

--Tony

[liusteven]

Thanks Tony and TerryB... it was a typo.. I meant "Ich Attack herbal"... I was talking to some clients at a local LFS store and they swear by it... wonder anyone heard of this herbal medication?

[TerryB]

It seems like I have heard of 100 different treatments for ich over the years. The problem is that time and again they either do not work at all or not consistently. We have two proven effective treatments with copper and hyposalinity. Garlic has been the only alternative treatment worth a mention.
Terry B

[Rezzan1]

I am battling ich also. It doesn't sound to fun dismantling all of your rock work, and retreiveing the fish. It's not, I just finished I have my angle, tang, and gramma in my Q tank now. It was really stressfull on them and the ich seams to have gotten worse hopefully before getting better, i wish the fish all the luck.

[TerryB]

Keep in mind that people that quaratine all new fish for three weeks minimum BEFORE they go into the display rarely have these types of problems in their reef. Chances are that if you have an ich outbreak in your reef that you did NOT properly quarantine. Yes, it is a pain to tear through your rockwork to get every last fish out of a reef for treatment. It is much easier to quarantine in the first place and avoid this type of mess to begin with.
Terry B

[liusteven]

Thanks for the info TerryB.... I am going to get a 300 gal main tank and use my 100 gal as hospital tank.. But for now, I have decided to use the "Herbal ich attack" because it has no side effects...

Its been 18 hrs since I added the "herbal ich attack" and I checked my fishes in the morning!.. All were doing well and I fed my fish with Nori and with mysis shrimp & forumla 2 soaked overnight in garlic, zoe and zoecon.. they finsihed all the food in 3 min!!

My regal tang does not seem to brush against the rock and I think the ich on this tail has reduced (the water was cloudy because of the herbal medication)

I will keep all of you posted to let you know what happens.. this hebal medciation is for about 1.5 week!

[TerryB]

There are a couple of things that you should know about ich. It is part of the parasites natural life cycle to fall off the fish before it can reproduce. When the spots seem to have disappeared it is often just the calm before the storm as thousand of new infective theronts attack the fish. You fish may very well appear to get better before they get much worse. Another thing is that fish with ich usually continue to eat quite well until the infection has become advanced and a secondary bacterial infection has set in. I wish you luck with the herbal remedy, but I must warn you that I have yet to see a so called reef-safe treatment that is consistently both safe and effective. If you are smart then you will prepare to treat with hyposalinity while you are trying the herbal remedy. One other thing is that it may be helpful to soak the food with garlic for a few weeks. Oh, and treating ich really takes more than 10 days or you run a very high risk of it just coming back.
Terry B

[liusteven]

Terry thanks for the info... Yes, I am looking at hyposalinity as well as copper treatment if the herbal remedy fails...

I'm running a 5 watt UV sterlizer but I intend to put a double helix 36 watt uv sterlizer..... and that would be an inline to my optional XP3 canister...

I'm hoping that my fishes can fight off the ICH!!

Steve

[TerryB]

A powerful UV can control the population of parasites but it will not eliminate Cryptocaryon irritans from your system. Besides that the UV could chemically alter the herbal remedy in the water. I hope that things work out for you. Are you also feeding the fish foods that have been soaked in garlic. Garlic is actually the only alternative treatment worth mentioning.
Terry B

[liusteven]

Yes I am feeding with garlic extract and also the herbal extract is 80% garlic .. the house smells garlicy

[BrianD]

Ok, lets review:

On 7/1/2, you were just setting up your tank, and experienced the loss of a triggerfish and a puffer (this thread) (btw, it was a 100 gallon tank then).

On 8/31/2, you indicated your vlamingi tang was hurt by your purple tang (this thread.

And now, on 9/5/2, you indicate your tank has a "regal tang, val tang, personifer angel, and a MI" (this current thread). The tank is now a 125 gallon tank.

You just recently added (and lost) a copperband to this same tank.

Based on your posts, you first set up this tank around the end of June.

Therefore, since June, you have lost (at least) a pufferfish, triggerfish, purple tang, and a copperband, and, currently have in your 125 gallon tank 1 next to impossible to keep fish (the moorish idol), 1 very difficult fish (the personifer angel), and two species of tang.

I am sorry, but treating the diseases in your tank is the least of your concerns. Unless you correct some of these stocking choices and SLOW DOWN considerably, you are destined for many more losses in this tank. The questions you have asked indicate you are somewhat new to the hobby, and many of the fish you have purchased are extremely difficult to maintain.


Brian

[TerryB]

Brian,
You are an observant guy, I think you probably nailed it! Hopefully he will quarnatine and learn to research fish BEFORE he buys them.
Terry B

[liusteven]

BrianD,

You know being moderator does not give you the "POWER" to flame at people or to assume things...

I do not need to justify my experience but.... I had a 90 gal saltwater FO tank for 3 years and then I moved so I gave my stuff to my friend.. I came back (3 yrs later) to this hobby because one of my friend had a tank for 2 years and had an emergency so I took over his tank...

I set up his tank at my home with all of his stuff and ran it for 2 weeks before I brought his fishes back from a local LFS.. I introduced the fishes 3 at a time per week for a period of 2 weeks and then that night the PH dropped to 7.6.... just that evening I checked the PH and it was at 8.2!!

You would not know what I went through when I saw my trigger, purple tang and puffer dead!!!

The tank sprung a leak? not sure how and then I changed it to a 120 gal acrylic tank and moved all the LR and LS to the new tank...with a 6 month seeded ecosystem.. I let the ecosytem run for a month....

YOUR email does not help me in fixing my current problem and your Condescending remarks just reflects your personal character!!

I'm not going to add more to this because its a waste of my TIME!! seems like you have ALL THE TIME in the world to investigate my posts!!!

[BrianD]

Bottom line: stocking decisions play a huge part in the health of our fishes. Your stocking levels are high, plus your fish choices were very poor. The proof is in your extremely high mortality rate. You can be offended, or you can remove the chip from your shoulder and consider other opinions.

Brian

[BigBoneDee]

I personally never get offened by what answers i get to problems I have. If I am describing a situations that are causing havoc in my tanks then I want to hear it.

This hobby is not for the impatient and I too have fallen victim to hastiness. Its difficult for experienced people to hold back when they see one of us killing our livestock. I have named every fish that I have owned and when you have one that actually makes it for a few years you wil understand that these creatures can be as special as any dog . I know I have a dog too. My wife understands why it is that when I get home from work I sit down in front of my 75 gallon for about a half hour and say hello to my buddies.

[maroun.c]

I didn't see any offense in what was said. the good thing about that posts are saved on boards is that many times while trying to solve a problem if someone experienced goes through your old ones they could relate to what's happening now in your tank to some thing that happened before or have an idea of previous problems you had before in the tank and forgot to mention. i believe it is tough enough for moderators to answer every question on this board so imagine them giving you the time to review your last posts to try to find what's wrong in your tank. do you really think Brian waisted his time just to flame you? i doubt that, at least on this board. Anyway we all make mistakes, with overstocking and fast stocking and fish selection beeing among the most frequent ones so i guess you got the true answer to your problem and you should be thankfull and try to improve.
Peace.

[debbieraptors]

Hello everyone:
First time I ever replied to this message board, but I just wanted to share an experience reqarding ick in a reef tank. I am thankful for Terry B sharing his knowledge and forthrightness in his comments. I have been in the hobby for three years now and made many mistakes...You would think I would better on this scenario: I have an established two year 55 gal reef and had great success with a mated pair of mandrains. Every night I would watch them do their little mating dance, eat the copepods off the live rock.etc. live was good. The other inhabitants were
a red sea tang, two royal gammas and a mated pair of clowns on some anemones. Then one day, I made the ultimate mistake, I
bought a lawn mower blenny from the LFS and did not isolate it.
I was worried because, the LFS said they eat only algae and I was worried about feeding in a hospital tank, whereas, my established tank had a healthy algae population. Soooooo, this fish within two weeks came down with ick....spread to all my other fish, both my beloved mandrains died, and all the others, except the red sea tang. Upon seeing the fish scratching and noticing the ick, I setup a hospital tank, treated with copper, but my beloved mandarins and clowns and royal gammas all died.
The only one who made it was the red sea tang.
I am writing this to warn all of you who try to "quickly do things"
and rush the process. I have learned the hard way.
I would like to know if mandarins are sensitive to copper...I did not know about the hyposalinity method until two weeks ago...
Also, I just read the article in Fish Aquarium magazine, from Scott Michael, concerning hyposalinity method and you can not use it in a reef tank with INVERTS. I also have alot of inverts in my reef tank. I just spoke to Dr. Grillo , the inventor of Kick ick by Ruby Reef and I have tried this in my reef tank. I will let all of you know my opinion in about a month. I also feed garlic extreme on a regular bases, before the ick occurred.
I would appreciate any feedback or comments.
Thank you all for a very fine message board.
Debbie

[BigBoneDee]

I do believe copper will not be good for mandarins.

I used the kent garlic Liguid and mixed it in with my homemade prepared frozen food and it actually took care of an Ich situation affecting my Hippo tang. I think the stuff is great. I also mixed in zoecon and vitamin C and baby vitamins. No strct measurements , just by feel.