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  #26  
Old 10/08/2004, 03:16 PM
kwjones kwjones is offline
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Cooking and curing LR are two different things.

Curing allows the build up of bacteria to deal with the nitrogen cycle.

Cooking is the process of cleaning out all the detritus that's built up in the pores of the LR and started the cycle to begin with. Have you looked at your LFS curing tubs? There's a lot of detritus in there just rotting....OK, so "Cooking" is just an extended curing process.

I have 2 25 gallon Rubbermaid tubs, two Maxi-Jet 900 powerheads and a 50 watt heater. In one tub I have 12 gallons of saltwater, the powerheads, the heater and the LR covered with about 2" of water. Every Friday I mix up 12 gallons of saltater in the other tub. I will admit that I'm not using RO/DI water for cooking the rock, just well water that is loaded with silicates. I hope I don't get a big diatom bloom when I finally add it to my tank, but I can deal with that using regular water changes with RO/DI. Saturday, I dunk/swish, and hit the LR with a powerhead and transfer it to the tub of clean saltwater. I put the lid on the tub, but leave it cracked open a little bit so it gets some fresh air in it.

For the first month, the tub that the rock was in, the water was yellow with the whole bottom of the tub covered in detritus, dead macro algae and all sorts of other junk. I eventually caught a mantis shrimp in there. This last Saturday, I might have had enough detritus in the bottom of the tub to fill half to 3/4's of a shot glass. The first month, I probably could have filled up a shot glass or two. Now, the water is no longer yellow. I tested the water just for the heck of it last friday...Ammonia 0, Nitrites 0, Nitrates 20ppm, pH 8.2, SG 1.023, temp 78. Some of the coraline has bleached, but not as much as I thought. Sponges and tunicates are growing all over it.

I'm transferring the 30lbs of LR that I've been cooking for the last two and a half months into my tank tomorrow because there's almost NO detritus in the bottom of the tub as of last night. Then I'm taking ALL the LR that's already in my tank, about 50 lbs, and cooking it for the next 3 to 4 months because it's super dirty. Since I don't have any coral in my tank, I've been leaving the lights off on my tank so I don't grow any more algae. When I do turn the lights on to feed the fish, there's not as much algae as there used to be, but it's still there.
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Last edited by kwjones; 10/08/2004 at 03:40 PM.
  #27  
Old 10/09/2004, 04:24 PM
reefsociety101 reefsociety101 is offline
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"OK, so "Cooking" is just an extended curing process" - Now there an easy explanation I can understand!
  #28  
Old 10/09/2004, 04:37 PM
SeanT SeanT is offline
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Well...it CAN be but it isn't always the case.
You can't cure cured rock right?
But you CAN cook cured rock.

Cooking has nothing to do with the ammonia cycle.
It has to do with changing the conditions the rocks are in from an algal dominated (lit) to a bacteria dominated (dark) system.

Enabling the bacteria to get the upperhand and 'bore' into the rock and consume all the organics (Phosphorous), thus eliminating the algae's food source, thus killing the algaes off.
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  #29  
Old 10/09/2004, 04:47 PM
reefsociety101 reefsociety101 is offline
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Going to home depot to get some containers and I'm cooking tonight!

Quick questions for those who are expert chefs, when the live rocks are done cooking do they look sterile, dead with no life? Or are do they still look like live rock and not dead rock? Thanks!
  #30  
Old 10/09/2004, 04:57 PM
mps9506 mps9506 is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by reefsociety101
Going to home depot to get some containers and I'm cooking tonight!

Quick questions for those who are expert chefs, when the live rocks are done cooking do they look sterile, dead with no life? Or are do they still look like live rock and not dead rock? Thanks!
It'll be purdy much white. But keep in mind it is still laden with bacterial life which is what we are aiming for. If your tank conditions are correct once it goes back in it will be covered in corralline in no time at all.
  #31  
Old 10/09/2004, 05:17 PM
reefsociety101 reefsociety101 is offline
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MPS,

That's what I was afraid off, the rock just looks so natural and good, but like you said if the tank conditions are right coralline will be back in no time and hopefully I haven't missed it too much.

Would this process be beneficial regardless of tank type ie. SPS dominated, softies or LPS?

Wouldn't the process be easier if we started out with old dead white rock and add bacteria to it? Or maybe seed it? Wouldn't the result be the same?
  #32  
Old 10/09/2004, 07:55 PM
mps9506 mps9506 is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by reefsociety101
MPS,

That's what I was afraid off, the rock just looks so natural and good, but like you said if the tank conditions are right coralline will be back in no time and hopefully I haven't missed it too much.

Would this process be beneficial regardless of tank type ie. SPS dominated, softies or LPS?

Wouldn't the process be easier if we started out with old dead white rock and add bacteria to it? Or maybe seed it? Wouldn't the result be the same?
Dead rock can still be loaded with all kind of nutrients for algae to feed off of. I figure it is easier to start with rock that already has the bacteria, then just let it gain the "upperhand" like Sean said.
although I don't see any reason you can't start with base or dead rock and do this, I would still cook it just to see what kind of crud comes out, my bet is a lot. you essentially are adding a step or two to the process by using dead rock. since you will have to seed and cycle it first, then cook it.
Once you start on your first batch and see how much crud comes out, you will be amazed.
  #33  
Old 10/09/2004, 08:24 PM
reefsociety101 reefsociety101 is offline
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MPS,

Thanks! That makes sense.
  #34  
Old 10/09/2004, 08:25 PM
SeanT SeanT is offline
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In actuality, Coraline coverage inhibits the critters you want on your rock a nice home.
It covers up all the...well, holes.
The rock will be pretty pale but it does cover up quickly.
Much more quickly now that you don't hae the phosphates inhibiting the growth or Coraline now.

And don't be fooled.
They are chock full of life.
Some of my rocks have been cooking since early August and are covered with pods, mysid shrimp ,sponges, worms and others.
All the good stuff.

And like Mike said, the beneficial bacteria are still there.
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  #35  
Old 10/09/2004, 08:34 PM
mps9506 mps9506 is offline
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Ditto on what Sean said. My rock cooked for 3 months and was teeming with mysids once I started my display tank back up. I dunno how they make it through it with no nutrient input, but I had all kinds of critters in my rock.
  #36  
Old 10/11/2004, 10:26 PM
npaden npaden is offline
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Why don't you just buy some base rock and leave it out in the driveway for a few good rain storms? Hose it down with a pressure washer? I think you would end up with rock about equally devoid of any useful life. I really think this whole bare bottom tank, cooking the live rock to make it dead rock is silly.

If anything is living through the process then you must not be "cooking" it long enough. I'm sure there are still nutrients in there somewhere!

FWIW, Nathan
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  #37  
Old 10/11/2004, 10:39 PM
SeanT SeanT is offline
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Hey Nathan,
If you get 'mined' rock like from reeferrocks that should be fine.
But if the rock was live and just got dried out to make base rock, the problem with that is the organics are still there and will leech out eventually.
Sean
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  #38  
Old 10/12/2004, 06:36 AM
mps9506 mps9506 is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by npaden
Why don't you just buy some base rock and leave it out in the driveway for a few good rain storms? Hose it down with a pressure washer? I think you would end up with rock about equally devoid of any useful life. I really think this whole bare bottom tank, cooking the live rock to make it dead rock is silly.

If anything is living through the process then you must not be "cooking" it long enough. I'm sure there are still nutrients in there somewhere!

FWIW, Nathan
I don't think you understand it. You are not cooking it to make it dead, you are cooking it to remove the phosphates and other nutrients that feed algae. You are ending up with live rock that is full of life, but no algae or fuel for algae.
That is the purpose of this process, not killing the live rock, it does not end up devoid of life, it ends up full of good bacteria that makes setting up your tank a pretty easy process.
Mike
  #39  
Old 10/12/2004, 07:30 AM
npaden npaden is offline
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[s]Sarcasm off.[/s]

I understand the process, I just don't understand the reasoning behind it. This hobby is so funny to watch as the pendulum swings from one side to the other. When I got my rock it was important to get the freshest "Raw" rock with all the algae and crap still on it. I cured it in the display tank right off with a 5" DSB. It's over 3 years later and the tank looks great. No nusiance algae and I'm not worried about it.

The keys to a nice tank IMO are a really good skimmer and really good water flow. You can cook your rock for years and if you don't spend the $ on a good skimmer and have good water flow you are going to end up with problems down the road.

FWIW, Nathan
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  #40  
Old 10/12/2004, 10:40 AM
SeanT SeanT is offline
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Nathan, I completely understand where you are coming from.
I have followed several different ways myself.

However, I feel that cooking rock, especially rock that has been in our systems for awhile, isn't a fad or better yet, isn't a method of reekeeping.

Think of it along the same lines as doing water changes.
We all know that water changing is not mandatory with any regularity.
But few will argue the case that it doesn't help and I don't know of any who will try to argue it is bad (there may be some who will , I just don't know them).
Regardless of the 'system' one employs, water changes are a good thing.

Now think of algae. None of us want it. Cooking rock gets rid of the organics (Phosphorous) deep in the rocks which starrves off the algae.

I have been cooking my rock since August.
It is all going back in my tank soon.
I took PUH-LENTY of before pictures.

I will post them all here.
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  #41  
Old 10/12/2004, 11:21 AM
npaden npaden is offline
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I prefer my rock in my tank with corals growing on it.
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  #42  
Old 10/12/2004, 11:47 AM
eastcoaster1 eastcoaster1 is offline
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This is an interesting topic. Does anyone have any information on a long-term experiment using this method? I guess I'm looking to see if the algae returned after the 'cooked' rock was back in the tank for 4-5 months.
  #43  
Old 10/12/2004, 11:58 AM
reefsociety101 reefsociety101 is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by SeanT
Nathan, I completely understand where you are coming from.
I have followed several different ways myself.

However, I feel that cooking rock, especially rock that has been in our systems for awhile, isn't a fad or better yet, isn't a method of reekeeping.

Think of it along the same lines as doing water changes.
We all know that water changing is not mandatory with any regularity.
But few will argue the case that it doesn't help and I don't know of any who will try to argue it is bad (there may be some who will , I just don't know them).
Regardless of the 'system' one employs, water changes are a good thing.

Now think of algae. None of us want it. Cooking rock gets rid of the organics (Phosphorous) deep in the rocks which starrves off the algae.


I have been cooking my rock since August.
It is all going back in my tank soon.
I took PUH-LENTY of before pictures.

I will post them all here.
I look forward to seeing the before and after pictures.
  #44  
Old 10/12/2004, 12:18 PM
SeanT SeanT is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by npaden
I prefer my rock in my tank with corals growing on it.
As do I. Just corals though, no hair algae.

Quote:
Originally posted by eastcoaster1
Does anyone have any information on a long-term experiment using this method?
I guess I'm looking to see if the algae returned after the 'cooked' rock was back in the tank for 4-5 months.
I wouldn't really call it an experiment.
But if you ask Bomber, he cooked his rocks, and I ma sure he will volunteer his insights on how well it worked.

As for me, the rock entered my cooking tubs, COVERED, with hair algae.
I began to pull it off but got frustrated with there being so much, so I decided to heck with it and was going to let it cook extra time if necessary.

There is not a single visible strand of algae left on any of the rocks, except for some minor coraline.

The putrid, rotting,...crap that came out of these rocks was phenomenal.
I wouldn't have believed it if I didn't have to do the water changes personally.

It didn't smell like skim mate.
It smelled like rotting fish.
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  #45  
Old 10/12/2004, 12:20 PM
kwjones kwjones is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by eastcoaster1
This is an interesting topic. Does anyone have any information on a long-term experiment using this method? I guess I'm looking to see if the algae returned after the 'cooked' rock was back in the tank for 4-5 months.
I'm going to take a wild stab in the dark...and of course this is all hypothetical, and depends on what you mean by long term.

If someone has algae, let's narrow it down to hair algae, regrowing on the cooked rock, I see two, possibly three, reasons for this happening.

1. An obvious reason would be that the person hasn't kept up on cleaining the tank or does not have a good way to remove detritus from the system. Algae grows where the "dirt" is. There may be inadequate flow which is allowing detritus to settle on to the rock and it's not being blown off periodicly with a power head or turkey baster.

2. It's possible that the cooking process was flawed. The rock might have been exposed to more light than it should have wich means it did not become bacterial driven and still had some algae growing on it. On the other hand, the person cooking the rock, my have rushed things and didn't let it cook as long as it should have.

3. It may be possible that the rock is land based and mined out of a limestone quarry. Land based rock seems to have much more phosphates in it than rocks that have been sitting in the ocean for a few hundred years. This doesn't seem as likely, but unless the person knows exactly where the rock was harvested from, it is possible. I can go into my LFS and see that someone has broken their tank down and the LFS is reselling the LR, but I don't know if the previous owner bought some base rock that was mined out of a limestone quarry and seeded it with LR, so it's a small possibility.

I couldn't say that any one of these situations would be the actual reason, it could be a combination of any or all since each tank is unique.

For land based rock, I don't know what the cooking duration would be or if it would even work. We'd probably have to ask Bomber. I do know that if you do a search for Bomber, you can see pictures of his tank using cooked rock, and the pictures span over the last year. He's been posting lots of new pics lately and everything is still looking great.

Kevin
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  #46  
Old 10/12/2004, 12:37 PM
kwjones kwjones is offline
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I don't know if you consider a year a "long term" experiment with cooked rock, but here's the link to Bomber's Tank, it's 12 pages long.
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...hreadid=292233

I think this link is better as far as showing a timeline of his tank with before and current pictures...
http://www.thereeftank.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=39139
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  #47  
Old 10/15/2004, 05:36 PM
NuclearReefs NuclearReefs is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by SeanT
I wouldn't really call it an experiment.
But if you ask Bomber, he cooked his rocks, and I ma sure he will volunteer his insights on how well it worked.

As for me, the rock entered my cooking tubs, COVERED, with hair algae.
I began to pull it off but got frustrated with there being so much, so I decided to heck with it and was going to let it cook extra time if necessary.

There is not a single visible strand of algae left on any of the rocks, except for some minor coraline.

The putrid, rotting,...crap that came out of these rocks was phenomenal.
I wouldn't have believed it if I didn't have to do the water changes personally.

It didn't smell like skim mate.
It smelled like rotting fish.
I had done this process along time ago in the back of the store I ran for the rock in our show tank . The water movement in the tank was almost 8 fps , so we wanted as bare a rock as we could get. New live rock was NOT the option in this case.. So we took one of our old fish holding systems (225 gallons ) and loaded it full of rock and saltwater ( First batch was actually from out system water change) I new I was shaking out detritus so I didnt mind using the other water change water.. let this run and circulate 2 weeks.The a water change,,, repeat,, etc,,, The only thing I see that I was doing different was I was dosing a gallon of kalkwasser every 3 days to help percipitate the phosphates.. which went away very fast. .. When this process was done 2 months of tank design/ plumbing tweaks we has some Nice clean rock that after was in the tank was phenomenal... very porous and pods everywhere.....Any type of Encrusting SPS Coral went NUTS leaning on this rock..... Patients was the killer though... staring and a big tank and wanting to fill er up.....

Nathan
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  #48  
Old 10/15/2004, 07:33 PM
Travis Travis is offline
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Just thought I would share my experience so far with cooking my rock. I'm not following the "recipe" but using the same concept. I got my barebottom tank all set up. This tank is set up for sps so it has a very high turnover rate with a lot of randomized water movement. I am using my tank as the environment to cook my rock. My aquascaping is all on top of an eggcrate structure that keeps the rocks elevated 3" off the bottom. There are several spray bars under the eggcrate structure that fed at random intervals by a 6000 gph pump that keeps all detritus from staying on the bottom. It is all blown into the water column where it is removed by the LARGE skimmer or accumulates in the sump to be siphoned out.

I added about 230 lbs of fresh uncured live rock and around 40 lbs of live rock from my existing tank. I used a large powerhead every other day to blow off any detritus that would accumulate on the rocks. I siphoned the sump every week. The detritus production finally started slowing at about 4 weeks. It has now been 7 weeks and it is coming to a halt.

I think that "new" rock needs to be cooked just like any other rock. The "new" rock that was in my tank was spitting out large amounts of detritus for the first month and still continued to do so after that.

Just wanted to share my experience so that everyone doesn't think they HAVE to follow the recipe of swish, then move to fresh water, then swish, then move to fresh water, etc. Heck, if we are setting our systems up right the first time with big skimmers, high turnover rates, and proper means to keep detritus from accumulating in the tank, then we might as well let our systems "help" us cook our rock. However, for those who are cooking their rock from an existing setup and have to house their livestock in their display then the "recipe" would probably be the best way to go.
  #49  
Old 10/17/2004, 11:28 PM
krazyplace krazyplace is offline
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I've always been the one to try something new...

I have 2 tanks (reef and FO) running on a common sump and a common refuge. I'll be upgrading the reef to a larger size soon and would like to try this theory. Currently I'd describe my DSB reef as green and dirty, but with very good growth!

What do you guys think of two tanks on a common sump and refuge; one BB (reef) and a DSB (FO)? Of course if I did it, I'd cook the rock when I move it over.

If I understand the cooking and BB tank concept correctly this should be OK, right?
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  #50  
Old 10/18/2004, 11:42 AM
Travis Travis is offline
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Having a DSB in the same system defeats the entire purpose behind a BB system. In a BB system you are removing detritus before it accumulates and starts breaking down. In a DSB system you are accumulating detritus and letting it break down in the sand bed. All of the detritus from your BB tank will collect in your DSB tank and break down in the sandbed leading to elevated pollutant levels in your tank.
 

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