OT: i'm digging a pond, any one else into ponds who can give advice? or trade goods?

lilleahseafreak · #1 07/16/2006, 09:36 PM

i just spent the whole day wallowing in the mud digging a big pond. it was fun and liberating to get covered in mud (i felt like i was 5 again!) and working in the hole w/water in it was nice on this hot day, but it took forever to get clean!

any way i was hoping to maybe set up some trades or get advice from local pond people.

i know some on in the club sells koi, and i am pretty sure some one in the club also dug their own pond.

so at this point the advice i need is how to finsih the pond, i am debating over using black pond liner or cement. the pond is very curvy, lots of divits and a small ditch leading to a smaller pond, so a liner may be a pain to cut fold and shape into all the curves i also worry about tree roots eventaully comming through the liner:::, but cement costs more and will be messy and it will be hard to line the pond and not get it on me...and don't you have to first line the pond with chicken wire?....plus cement will have to like an inch thick which takes away from the water volume...

i was also hoping to "share goods" with other pond people here. i know some pond plants need regular trimming to keep them from taking over the pond and maybe we can share the extras? i have these neat trees that grow in water and make wonderful orange flowers for trade, i have a few extras,( i got them from the river, the ranger said it is fine since they are an invasive plant and they are actually trying to destroy them). i also have plenty of bullfrog tadpolls and young frogs ( living in a kiddie pool awaiting their pond) to give away or trade.

this pond is like a dream come true, i have wanted one for so long.

sumyungviet · #2 07/17/2006, 12:39 AM

we have a koi pond in my back yard. i think it would be better to go with the pond liner. in the 10+ years we've had the pond, we've only replaced the liner once. what we did, was put the liner over the hole, then stick a hose in the middle, and let the water run, and it 'sank' the liner into the hole, this did most of the folding, and then it just took a little bit of tidying up, and trimming off the excess. the pond is kindof my dad's thing, not mine so im not sure on the tradeing of stuff from it, ther's just a couple lily's and some koi in it. Good luck!
Larry

boviac · #3 07/17/2006, 04:18 PM

I would recommend considering what will happen when it rains and 1) your pond overflows and what will happen to that water (erosion?) 2) what if the ground is fully saturated and rain continues to now flood into your pond - Will there be anything that can flow in and damage pond or inhabitants?

I know I'm an engineering geek. But its better to consider these things now when rain is the last thing you're thinking about when its over 100F outside instead of when it's been raining for the better half of the month and more is on its way. It's no fun being outside in the rain and mud trying to save something.

Also consider how you are going to provide makeup water - ponds tend to evaporate a lot - especially in this weather.

Never set up a pond myself but have read books and desire to do so as well. I have read many suggestion on a liner as well. Good Luck! Keep us posted on your progress.

brianblack72 · #4 07/17/2006, 04:49 PM

I have several recommendations on pond installation.

Firstly, don't use sharp rocks (i.e. slate) anywhere near your pond if you're using a liner. They will fall in and puncture the liner and you'll be buying a dozen patch kits in the years to come. Use round rocks. It also helps to throw a few bags of sand in the bottom to soften.

It's best to use concrete on the stones that you plan to put on top of the rim ... otherwise you will inevitibly be picking out rocks from the pond.

If the pond is in full sun, plan for using a UV sterilizer ... or you'll be doing a 50% water change twice per week to dilute the green.

Try to eliminate the chance of excess water collecting underneath the liner ... plan for proper drainage.

lilleahseafreak · #5 07/17/2006, 06:20 PM

on the draiage issue:
the ponds rim is nearly a foot higer than the surrounding ground: i used these big "peelacores" (which are stripped compacted treated logs) left over from a fence we took down (over 30 years old w/no rot!) to make a box around the pond area, then while digging i packed the mud around the rim and up to the logs to add another 10 inches to the depth w/out actually digging, so runoff is no prob. the garden itself is inside the shell of a above ground pool, i simply added wire to the top half to create my "green sancturary", the solid wall at the bottom is excellent for keeping our many pets out of there and will be a nessesity to keep the toads and frogs in the garden and safe from the cats, it also prevents flooding from the outside, i dug a small ditch under the sloped end of the pool rim to let extra water inside the rim out, and our yard has a slight but distinct slope so no water is gonna go in the hole.

i looked up the cement idea online and decided "no-way" as the cement has to cure before life can be added as it makes the water alkaline and if there is lime in the mix it is toxic.

as for make up water, for my little ponds (plastic pond from yardsale and a big buket) i just use the hose then add some "aquasafe" before and after topoff, i have never had a problem.

as for water under the liner, i don't know if i can fix that as we have hardpan clay, i am still waiting for the last of the water in the bottom to dry up! hopfully it won't cause a problem.

Pico1 · #6 07/17/2006, 06:24 PM

can you post any pics?

lilleahseafreak · #7 07/17/2006, 06:27 PM

would if could but my digital is acting up

sumyungviet · #8 07/17/2006, 06:55 PM

for the drainage under the liner, you could either dig down a couple more inches, and add a layer of gravel. That might help a bit.

boviac · #9 07/17/2006, 07:03 PM

If you go with gravel as stated above I would point out the obvious as also stated above. Backfill gravel with sand to soften area for liner.

Whoo hoo I'm almost to my 100'th post where as I get to select my own Avaitar.

boviac · #10 07/17/2006, 07:05 PM

And to now make it number 100! Sounds like you've got a great pond setup. Curious as to how deep the first water table is there if with this weather you're still waiting for it to dry up. Or is it you've simple watered it down to allow for ease of excavation of the clay layer? Curious...

toastman · #11 07/17/2006, 07:07 PM

A liner is really the only way to go for smaller ponds, I have both a linered pond that is maybe 2500 gallons or so, and a 1/2 acre pond that is clay lined that I dug with my trackhoe,dozer, and skid steer, both are ponds but both are very differnent, my linered pond has filters, and pumps, and lots of plants and is not much clearer than my big pond with no filters, pump and just some lillies in it....both have Koi in them, but the liner is the way to go on a smaller pond, the concrete will require curing, and alot of repairs over time....the liner, if it gets a hole can be easily repaired. You can line underneath the liner with old carpet, and or newspaper to soften the bottom, or sand, but that costs money and doesnt do much more than the carpet, or padding, or newspapers......jmo

lilleahseafreak · #12 07/17/2006, 07:50 PM

i have old rugs for under the liner where there are some roots.

and yeah, the water in the hole is from me fillingg the hole w/water to make it easier to dig and to cool myself off.

lilleahseafreak · #13 07/17/2006, 08:26 PM

ha! i just went to check on the pond and there were 4 young bullfrogs in the muddy puddle. they just cannot wait i guess!

otterpop510 · #14 07/18/2006, 12:31 AM

sounds like a cool (hot?) project. about how many gallons are you aiming for your pond to be? what kind of equipment are you planning to you in terms of filtration, water pumps, etc.?

CaliforniaDreamer · #15 07/18/2006, 01:44 PM

I built a 10,000 gal "KOI" pond in our back yard using cement and concrete block so don't know too much about using liners however I have a few suggestions. Also note I emphasized KOI as the structure and design of the pond was done for the Koi, I do not have water garden experience.

Sides of the pond should be vertical and at least 4 feet to the bottom (6 feet is better). This prevents water birds from sitting on the bottom and eating your fish and raccoons, skunks, and other varmints from easily catching your fish. The extra depth prevents the Koi from jumping out of the pond. When frightened they tend to dart away and a vertical wall will stop them. A sloping wall will cause them to follow up the wall and jump clear of the pond.

The side of the pond should be elevated above grade (sounds like you are doing this). As others have said this prevents pond water from becoming ground water and vise versa. This also prevents varmints from standing at the side of the pond and fishing. It also puts positive pressure on the liner so that even if ground water collects under the liner it will not rise and form a bubble. The water level should be at least 6 inches below the side of the pond so that varmints can’t sit on the edge and fish.

I don’t know how you are going to provide filtration but it is best if you have at least one bottom drain. The return can be over a water fall (if you are using a liner the water fall and pond liners should be one entire piece to prevent leaks) but it is better if you have some side returns also. Even better if the returns are through eductors. It is also preferable to have a skimmer for the pond. Much like in a SW tank this helps aerate the water and cleans the surface of debris.
In Koi ponds a substrate is a disadvantage. If it is small like sand of small gravel the Koi will constantly stir it up. If it is larger gravel or rocks then debris collects in the cracks and decays. Also take care with any items that pierce the liner such as the drain or skimmer. If the liner gets stretched it will eventually pull out of the clamps holding it and cause a leak.

Oh yes, and one other thing, use an EDPM liner if at all possible. Plastic is a little cheaper but is no where near a strong nor will it last a long.

This has become somewhat of a long post so I’ll stop here. PM me if there is anything I can do to help. Also you might want to consider joining the Camellia Koi Club. Many members there have built EDPM ponds.

Reefugee · #16 07/18/2006, 03:46 PM

I have thought about putting a koi pond in my backyard or front yard, but haven't done it. When (and if) I do install the pond, my biggest consideration will be:

Is the pond child proof? Last thing I want is for a kid to fall in the pool and drown. Some of the things I thought about is putting a fence around the pond. Having some way for a person to get out of a pool if someone was to fall inside. Funny as this may sound, I have also thought about my dogs as well. If they jump into the pool, will they be able to get out on their own? This usually means I would have to install some sort of steps (which then makes the fish more likely to fall to predators).

BTW - you may also want to check with your city regarding regulation in putting in a pond. I believe that in my city, you need a permit to put in a pond that is deeper than 18". (But then again - Davis requires you to have a permit to sneeze.) Some of the requirements for a permit may include requirement of a fence and putting any electrical power on it's own circuit and be GFCI. This is only an issue if 1) you sell your house or 2) if an accident happens, your home owners insurance may have some problems with a non-permitted upgrade.

Leaky ponds and algae problems may be a nuisance and inconvenience, but a kid drowning in my pond or pool would be devastating to me.

Anyway - I am not trying to discourage you from putting in a pond. Just wanted to through some food for thoughts.

Minh

ReefRian · #17 07/18/2006, 04:50 PM

Are there a lot of Cranes (birds) in your area? These birds love home ponds, expecially the easy to catch fish. If you have these birds around you may want to cover your pond somehow.

lilleahseafreak · #18 07/18/2006, 05:33 PM

the pond is fenced in my garden, see above posts for how well secured it is. NO ONE is going to be getting in there!!!

i want koi, but this pond is mainly focused on frogs, so it has shallow spots and deep spots.

i worry about coons but the perimiter of the garden will slow them down and my dogs yap their brains out so i likely will get there in time to stop one before they ruine everything.

birds though, heck before removing the rotten liner from the above ground pool my garden and pond are in, we let our turtle live in it and stocked the pool w/feeder fish, a green heron figured out there was goldfish and would perch on the side of the pool and dive in after them!!! way cool. if it does show up again, then well, that's life. so long as it does not touch my koi! i hope to get ones that will be big enough that it will be hard for such a bird to catch them!! (i think 5 inch fish may be hard to catch and swallow)

i just got the liner from home depo, its PVC, uv ray treated (however you put it) stuff that is supposed to last 10 years.

i have old tarps, rugs and feed bags (made of tarp stuff like sand bags) to under it. i will be setting in the liner shortly!!!

YAY!

lilleahseafreak · #19 07/19/2006, 03:39 PM

all that is left now is to finish up w/the rocks, add plants and fish.

i have such horrid luck, i was tossing rocks to the other side of the pond, one fell in the pond and seconds later my only goldfish was floating around the pond with a bloody side....
d@mn! i crushed my fish!!!
one measly rick falls in and kills my fish.
poo...

well any way i was wondering if any water gardeners will be showing up at the meeting and if maybe i can trade some corals, bullfrogs or cash for some water plants.

i am especially interested in water clovers (4 leaf clovers w/dark stripes on leaves that float on the water)

water lettuce

things like water iris, or paprus

and water lillies w/purple or pink flowers

as well as gold fish or koi.

i have soft corals like shrooms and zoas, a neat sps (pavona cactus i think) and a blue kenya tree thing.

i get all giggly when i see the pond, its almost too good to be true!!

i was looking at a prefab 160 gallon pond at homedepo ($120! the liner cost half that!) well my pond is bigger than that, not quite twice as big but i still say my pond is close to 300 gallons. its deepest point is up past my knees. past my head when sitting, as i should know as i slipped while walking through the sloped shallow end w/a rock and fell in yesterday!!

lilleahseafreak · #20 07/19/2006, 05:16 PM

does any one know a nice pond place w/good prices?

some place that has fish, plants and quality filters and pumps?

i get to go to one place with my dad on tuesday.

rafael13 · #21 07/20/2006, 06:51 AM

http://sacramento.craigslist.org/pet/184074965.html

rafael13 · #22 07/20/2006, 06:53 AM

oh I'm sorry, I was sure I read koi fish, but they are gold fish

lilleahseafreak · #23 07/20/2006, 09:04 PM

if they were koi i'd go get them, but for goldies, well davis is far from me.

i did get a 6 inch koi from incredible pets today for $12, (marked as $18 but the guy rung it up worng...i just kept my mouth shut-had the same thing happen before, i had 3 blue chromis, the girl only rung up one) it is yellow/gold with black highlights down his back, black around his eyes, and black nostrils. seeing him in the pond just tickles me pink!!!

i also got this "waterfall foam" from homedepo, the stuff works great for holding the rocks in place, it acts like that insulator foam used for pipes but is black and looks like cooled lava (good thing cause my job turned out messy looking, i just keep telling myself its lava) i mean the stuff is not even cured and the rocks are not budging when wiggled. and it was only like $10-$12 for the can.

i'll get pics as soon as i can as this pond is my dream come true andas been ALOT of hard work and i cannot wait to share!.

i just need to find a way to upload pics better than i have been before as it no longer works for me

grumble grumble gerr!

lilleahseafreak · #24 07/20/2006, 09:07 PM

can i use this as a pond pump? the guy was gonna use it for a fountain, $50 is the best price i have found. it should be enough (overkill?) for my 3 waterfalls....

http://sacramento.craigslist.org/rvs/182631198.html

tfp · #25 10/05/2006, 12:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ReefRian
Are there a lot of Cranes (birds) in your area? These birds love home ponds, expecially the easy to catch fish. If you have these birds around you may want to cover your pond somehow.

excellent advice rian! at 10:30pm tonight, i stepped out in the backyard and saw either a 3ft tall heron or brown crane standing next to my pond!

the damn thing took off so quickly and quitely like a ghost

i wont be able to tell until tomorrow morning if he got any of my 8yr old fish

gave them a little more cover for tonight and used a screen patio door. tomorrow, i'll bust out with some serious netting and maybe some kind of motion sensor.