Cupramine Treatment

RBU1 · #1 06/06/2007, 06:33 PM

Has anyone attempted to use this product in a display with rock and inverts?

I had a converstion on the phone today with Seachems Tech support. What they told me was I can use this treatment in my Fish only with live rock tank. It will more than likely kill all the snails but there may be a possibility some will survive the treatment. I was also instructed to use Stability in conjunction with the Cupramie as an added protection to the biological filtration. At this point I am willing to try it because my options are limited. My fish are in a 180 and putting them in a hospital tank will more than liely kill them anyway. Putting 6 large fish in a 30 gallon tank has to be hard on them.

I just wanted to get some opinions and see if anyone else has attempted this......Wish me luck.......

LargeAngels · #2 06/07/2007, 11:25 AM

It will kill inverts and if the rock is live it won't be anymore. You will also probably have an amonia spike when they do die. Don't count on being able to keep coral with this rock if you treat with copper.

Cupramine is an excellent copper treatment for fish. It is extremely affective, even for copper sensitive fish.

If you dose to a tank with rock, sand or crushed coral some of the Cupramine will be absorbed so you need to check the copper level daily. Seachem has had severe problems with their copper test kit so I use Red Sea's. Supposedly they have corrected the problem, but I haven't tried the new test kits.

kevin2000 · #3 06/07/2007, 12:05 PM

I think Seachem is a great company .. but I suspect some of the info on their website concerning Cupramine was developed by their marketing dept.

Sounds like you may be stuck between a rock and a hardplace. If you do go forward with placing Cupramine in your show tank I would appreciate your continuing this thread in a few months to give us your input on whether Cupramine does leach back into the water column.

RBU1 · #4 06/07/2007, 12:10 PM

I have no problem with that. From what Seachem is telling me. I feel comfortable enough to try the treatment. I know I am going to have to keep an eye on the ammonia because most if not all the snails will die. Seachem is telling me that I should be able to control the posibility of a cycle by using stability. Apparently Stability helps by adding bacteria to the tank. I am not concerned with the corals because I dont have any and never plan on adding any to this tank. I have a 75 gallon reef tank upstairs. The dosage I was told to use from Seachem is 8ML the first day. Then see how things go. If all looks good another 8ML the following day. Then wait like 3 days then do another 8ML then another 3 days another 8ML this will get me to the .5 using 170 gallons as my total water volume. Keep your fingers crossed for me. I am going to give it a try.

kevin2000 · #5 06/07/2007, 12:18 PM

You might consider removing everything you suspect is going to die now .. should help with water quality issues.

Also ... I would make up a large batch of replacement water right now .. if you have ammonia issues its always nice to have plenty of aged SW handy.

Lastly ... as I recall cupramine often makes ammonia testing difficult (something do to with the amine confusing the test kits I think). Since ammonia maybe a problem I would ask Seachem whats the best method to get an accurate reading of ammonia.

Good luck.

Triggerfish · #6 06/07/2007, 12:31 PM

the only advantage of not having a reef is the ability to directly treat the tank with meds if need be..you mind as well take advantage of that opportunity if you have it.

RBU1 · #7 06/07/2007, 12:34 PM

Good idea. I will start making a couple batches when I get home. I will call Seachem right now.

I will remove as much as I can. But I have those tiny little black snails that borrow in the sand. Almost impossible to get them all. Plus I have no place to put them. I don't want to put them in the tank upstairs my luck ich will be attached to the snail or something.

kevin2000 · #8 06/07/2007, 12:44 PM

One last thought.

Have you thought about using hypo salinity in your ST? Hypo would kill of alot of your inverts but thats true of copper as well. Hypo won't have any long term potential impacts like copper and I think its easier to administer than copper treatment.

With both hypo and copper you should consider tossing your live rock into a rubbermaid trashcan with SW, powerhead, and a heater ... any ich on the LR would die off without a fish. Should help preserve your live rock and also help your water quality while your treating your show tank. Good place to toss your snails and other inverts as well.

Just a thought.

RBU1 · #9 06/07/2007, 01:03 PM

Thanks for the thoughts....I wanted to start this treatment ASAP. The puffer and Hippo are breathing heavy. I will remove the large cleaner clams and put them in a bowl in the refrigerator. That should out them back in the dorment stage. Hopefully long enough to do the treatment.

I guess I could put some in a trash can with a powerhead and heater. I will just some water from the tank. I will think about it. Thanks again for helping me think.

RBU1 · #10 06/07/2007, 01:05 PM

I am also being told by Seachem that because there product is different from any other copper treatments that I may be surprised by the die off I get. The person I spoke feels that I might not have nearly as much die off as I think I will. We will see........

kevin2000 · #11 06/07/2007, 01:14 PM

Your welcome

As I recall puffers don't do well with copper and while cupramine may be less harsh if your debating Hypo vs copper you might want to take that into consideration.

Also .. neither copper or hypo kill ich on the fish so neither treatment is going to have quick results ... copper kills ich within the water column and hypo just prevents the tomonts from hatching.

If you go with hypo you will find that a mixture of 2/3'rd SW combined with 1/3 FW will get you close to an SG of 1.009 .. also fish are more tolerant of reductions in salinity (as compared to increases in salinity) so reducing salinity quickly should not pose a problem.

Good luck.

landlord · #12 06/08/2007, 08:16 AM

As an after thought on the after effect of Cupramine. I just got back from a business trip to find out that my girlfriend (Bless her heart) took the word of the LFS over the phone to use Cupramine on an ich infested Coral Beauty, et all.

Quick Specs 31 gal tank 10 gal fuge

Since the dosing approx 72 hours ago all snails (turbos, margaritas, nass-- won't try and spell that one, ceriths_ are DEAD!. The bumblebee snails are still dying. The shrimp (Coral Banded, Skunk Cleaner and Camel) yeah they are dead too! The only happy people in the tank are the rapidly fattening hermit crabs who I see munching on whatever invertabrate carcass shows up from hour to hour.

I am saddened by the copper exposure to some 50 pounds of gorgeous coralline covered liverock and sand. 2 years of growth worth that is now probably not suitable for much of anything except as sump rock in the quarantine tank.

Brighter note - My girlfriend has offered to clean the DelTec (some sick kind of self therapy for guilt, I guess). It has also brought her more into the fold so-to-speak realizing how much she adored the fish she has started reading Reef Central to get more educated.

Good Luck!

RBU1 · #13 06/08/2007, 08:23 AM

Yeah I think I am going to try a different approach. I think I will remove the live rock to a trash can with a powerhead and heater. Try to also remove as many snails and inverts as posible. Then begin to lower the salinity and treat it that way. I guess it is a better option to copper.........

lindenfish88 · #14 06/08/2007, 12:27 PM

Good Luck to you RBU I am also very interested in treating a ST. I have rocks in it and wounder how the hypo works, if I dont remove the rocks and sand will they be affected badly by the large and quick salinty drop?

kevin2000 · #15 06/08/2007, 12:38 PM

Inverts don't do well with hypo so most of the critters within the live rock may die if you use hypo in your ST ... whether you reduce salinity quickly or slowly.

lindenfish88 · #16 06/08/2007, 12:41 PM

that doesnt sound good that means if stuff dies off in the sand and rock wouldnt that cause a ammonia spike? ok my salintiy is at 1.025 if i lowered it to let say 1.020 would there be any affect? on the stuff if not I am tempted to lower it down to maybe 1.012. I bought some fish from a petco and they have their salinity down at 1.012 so would anything happen? Just curious to see if a small drop in salinity would help the fishes and not disturb the bugs

kevin2000 · #17 06/08/2007, 12:53 PM

Lowering the salinity can help reduce stress levels on fish which should help the fish's own immune system ward off certain diseases ... but the kind of reduction your talking about is not considered a treatment for ich itself (Petco probably sells more ich infested fish than anyone and there lower salinity doesn't seem to have helped them).

If your serious about SW you should invest in a small QT ... just no bona fide substitute .. a $10 ten gallon tank combined with a $10 power filter and an inexpensive heater isn't much of an investment .. lots of good threads on how to setup a good QT and worth a look.

juuniz · #18 06/08/2007, 04:17 PM

never ever use copper to cure main tank, as copper can be absorb by substrate.. and u'll get problems to maintain correct copper level..

it would be best to use QT without any substrate, just pump and simple filter..

Psionicdragon · #19 06/09/2007, 03:11 AM

hypo don't do much on ick except reduce the population where it is controllable and allowing the fishes to fight off the parasites better.

Hypo won't eliminate ick.

kevin2000 · #20 06/09/2007, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Psionicdragon
hypo don't do much on ick except reduce the population where it is controllable and allowing the fishes to fight off the parasites better.

Hypo won't eliminate ick.

Whats your basis for that statement? There has been plenty of research performed which indicates that hyposalinity when properly performed is very effective at eliminating ich ... there are some hypo resistant strains of ich but to my knowledge thats considered unusal and not the norm.

tropicalfishguy · #21 06/09/2007, 09:45 PM

I recently expirimented with treating cupramine in a 125 FOWLR. According to seachem their product isn't absorbed by live rock or substrate, which appears to be correct. After the second dose the copper level didn't deminish as it would if it was being absorbed, and I confirmed this with 2 test kits from different manufactures. Also it didn't effect my live rock, nor was there any spike or ammonia, nitite, etc. Therefore in my opinion it is as they say safe for use with live rock, but again, just my experience

happyface888 · #22 06/10/2007, 02:39 AM

tropicalfish your a local fish store owner right? I am tempted to try this out to I dont have any inverts except a tubeworm than I dont mind to pull out.

happyface888 · #23 06/10/2007, 09:06 PM

Guess Ima jack this thread now, I decided with my dad to throw cupramine in the ST. This tank we have was recently upgraded with some sand from my brothers reef tank which smelled, just rinsed it out a few times and took some of his rocks. I tossed in cupramine in a 45g where my hippo is covered w/ ich, Im guessing the day I set up this tank, i had about 20g and followed the instuctions on seachem 2 drop per 1g. So I droped in 25 b/c I dont have a test kit and would rather be a little safe. I have a tubeworm in the tank and I did notice a few copods floating around.Thats about it going to see whats going to happen next. My LFS told me I can remove cupramine with carbon and he mentioned something about finely graded well.... I dont know and he told me to get ICH Attack Which I asked around and had be reviews. Tropical What fish do u have in your tank? mind listing them thanks

tropicalfishguy · #24 06/10/2007, 09:45 PM

I have an emperor angel, maroon clown, picasso trigger, niger trigger, indigo hamlet and clown tang. LEt me know how the cupramine works for you

happyface888 · #25 06/10/2007, 10:00 PM

How long did you treat your fish? Would it take longer to treat at a lower dosage of cupramine? My dad is old school and doesnt want to bother with the test kit so we are going at a lower dosage. Is this a correct dosage that I used 45g with alot of rocks so I estimated about atleast 25g, 2drops per 1 gallon used 28 just to be on the safe side. And when do I start noticing the ich die off. LFS said it would kill my rocks and told me ICH ATTACK works but I read negative reviews. I started this treatment at 11:30am pacific central time. I hope the hippo tang will recover. Also I would like to know with the treatment of low dosage of cupramine will ich be stoped from leaping on to other fishes witch are clean of ich? Also if a fish is stressed and doesnt have ich and is in the same tank with a fish that has ich and the tank is being treated with the stressed fish which doesnt have ich. will it get ich from the infected fish? or does the cupramine kill it off.