Cupramine Treatment - Page 2

happyface888 · #26 06/11/2007, 12:18 AM

Update 10 hours have passed since I added cupermine. I tossed in a dwarf angel, and noticed that later it contracted ich as well. It seems that maybe my dosage is too low or cupramine takes awhile to activate. The dwarf angel has a few specs but eats food and swims around. Going to continue observing the fishes. I notice as the hippo swam around I would see here and there white spots drifting away from it but I am curious why the newly added dwarf caught ich while medicine is in the tank.

tropicalfishguy · #27 06/11/2007, 10:14 PM

The reason the angel got it is because it takes approx 2 wks to have it eraticated with copper. You may notice that it is gone within a few days, but 2 wks is the recommended period to leave the copper in to ensure no new ich is still present.

happyface888 · #28 06/11/2007, 11:00 PM

Woke up this morning looked around in the tank the angel lost the ich on it, and Im noticing some more white specs floating around. Fishes are eatting alot, Tropical I was wondering if I dosed at a lower dosage should I wait a extra week to see the results or is that not good for the fishes. My tubeworm still looks normal, nothing about it seems werid and its still thriving.

Triggerfish · #29 06/12/2007, 08:55 AM

what concentration are you maintaining?

luke33 · #30 06/12/2007, 01:49 PM

This is a very interesting thread here......I've always heard culpramine will kill off some of your LR but not all of it. Your snails will obviously die as well as inverts(besides some hermits) It will also destroy your bacteria columns from my understanding....unlike hypo. But i'll be following this thread to see how it plays out and good luck!

happyface888 · #31 06/12/2007, 08:56 PM

Well today I passed by my LFC and decided to get a copper test. I asked if they has seachem copper test and they said no, but they reccomended Doc Wellfish's Copper Test Kit by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals.So when I went home and tested my copper level, nothing showed up no color. Quit odd after reviewing other threads on cupramine I found out maybe my skimmer, skimmed it all up, So I turned it off. After seeing it had nothing I dosed 30 drops and I will wait and test again later. I guess thats the reason why I havent notice die off yet. Its not even on the chart yet. Oh also has anyone tried Dr Wellfishs copper test? My LFC Aquatic Central chris said he tried this with cupramine and it works but I would like feed back on this product as well. Thanks

Hmm I dont think I have any snails, My tank only has fish and the only invertabrate I have is a tubeworm.

took a closer look on my hippo its right eye is a bit cloudy as well as one of the perculas I have.

happyface888 · #32 06/12/2007, 10:03 PM

ok retested the copper It looks like we have some color it looks close to .5 but more like .4 , skimmers off fish are eatting alot. Has anyone heard of the 3 combo medicated foods? garlic Guard, Focus and Metronidazole. soaked in food. The angel's ich returned. Also is there anything I can do about cloudy eyes that developed? Should I do some water changes later on? The water im using is tap water w/ chlorine remover, will the remover affect the copper in my tank?

luke33 · #33 06/13/2007, 06:58 AM

See, the problem with treating with copper is its killing your good bacteria and your ammonia is more than likely rising. It sends your tank into a cycle. So your fish are getting cloudy eyes from poor water quality imo. Do a check on your water.Thats why hypo is so much better if you have to treat in your main tank. Your bacteria will be fine along with your fish. Your inverts will die however.

RBU1 · #34 06/13/2007, 10:26 AM

Luke you are not correct. The Seachem Copper treatment does not effect biological filtration. The only thing that may cause a cycle is the die off of the snails.......

luke33 · #35 06/13/2007, 12:17 PM

I would have to disagree RBU. But lets wait and see what happens here. I would like for you to be correct, however, i have used the seachem before in my 75g qt and it was a freakin nightmare. I had to do 30-40% water changes because my tank decided to cycle again............all because of this copper treatment.

RBU1 · #36 06/13/2007, 12:31 PM

Luke,

I had a lenghty discussion about this with Seachem. Not sure what caused your tank to cycle but I would have a hard time thinking Cupramine did it. In the future I would use Stability at the same time you use the Cupramine. That is what the suggested I do.

kevin2000 · #37 06/13/2007, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by happyface888
Well today I passed by my LFC and decided to get a copper test. I asked if they has seachem copper test and they said no, but they reccomended Doc Wellfish's Copper Test Kit by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals.So when I went home and tested my copper level, nothing showed up no color.

Cupramine copper cannot be accurately measured by many copper test kits. The three test kits that are known to accurately measure cupramine are Seachem, Salifert (recently produced as the old ones didn't work with Curpramine) and Red Sea (which can't register the higher level required by Cupramine - you need to dilute sample by 50% with distilled water and take into acct when you take reading).

Hope this helps.

kevin2000 · #38 06/13/2007, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by luke33
I would have to disagree RBU. But lets wait and see what happens here. I would like for you to be correct, however, i have used the seachem before in my 75g qt and it was a freakin nightmare. I had to do 30-40% water changes because my tank decided to cycle again............all because of this copper treatment.

Cupramine can kill some of the beneficial bacteria .. even Seachem admits that in their FAQ .. whether it would kill enough to cycle a tank may depend on stocking levels and how mature your tank is.

Most ammonia test kits cannot destinquish between ammonia and cupramine ... pretty common for people who use cupramine to get false ammonia readings. Good to have an ammonia test kit which can destinquish free ammonia from total ammonia .. should help next time you are forced to use Cupramine.

Personally I would never recommend using Cupramine in a show tank ... just no upside and plenty of downside.

Hope this helps.

luke33 · #39 06/13/2007, 02:43 PM

I think if i had to treat my display, which i would never want to do, i would take out all the inverts and LR and put them in my QT and hypo the tank. I wouldn't ever use copper or cupramine, to risky imo. But i'll be looking forward to seeing what outcomes you get.

Paul B · #40 06/13/2007, 03:41 PM

I think you are going about this the wrong way. You really can't effectively copper treat fish in a tank with calcium rocks. The calcium will quickly take out the copper. As a matter of fact, you may have to add 10 times the recommended amount of Cuprimine or copper to get a cure. (but don't do that) Ich can be eradicated from any fish in about two and a half days with copper if you keep it at the correct level. A low dose of copper (or Cuprimine) will do nothing. My recomendation as was said is to remove any coral rock or sand and treat the tank with the correct dose. You have to check the dosage every day or even twice a day. Copper is a very potent poison for fish, inverts and paracites. Fortunately, fish have a greater capacity to deal with it, but not much. Paracites are inverts so copper kills both. Crabs can sometimes live especially hermit crabs.
Don't let the toxic effects of copper scare you into not using it. All good medications are poisonous in the wrong dose. Think Chemo or radiation, even aspirin will kill you is overdosed.
When I started with salt in the early seventees I continousely kept copper in my tank. In those days all fish had ich and since there was no reefs, the fish were never that healthy. My tank is still running with that same gravel.
Hypo will kill ich but not as fast as copper. As was also said, the copper may not kill the paracites on the fish but it makes the fish produce much more slime which is thought helps the fish eliminate the paracites so they can be killed by the copper.
I personally don't use Cuprimine, I use copper and formulin or copper and quinicrine hydrocloride which will get the ich off the fish in about a day. The quinicrine alone will sometimes work and it will not kill the snails or crabs or affect your bacteria. It is hard to get as it is a prescription drug for maleria.
Also copper will not kill your bacteria either.
Good luck.
Paul

happyface888 · #41 06/13/2007, 07:05 PM

Sigh... My hippo stopped eatting and I lost that dwarf angel. It seems ich is destroying my Tank, Im feeling like hypoing now. I havent seen any imporvements in these days. Hippo is still covered with massive ich the angel died from the ich. Perculas also have ich. Maybe I should of went hypo, whats the affect on hypo w/ live rock and sand? The sand in my tank, half of it is old sand and half of it was taken out of my brother reef tank for a year and it smelled but rinsed it out. Maybe its the ammonia spiking the tank right now. who knows I think Im giving up on cupramine if it doesnt remove the ich and every fish goes, Im going to let it run for a month or two than Start QTing fish.

happyface888 · #42 06/13/2007, 10:27 PM

Thanks for all the support everyone, sigh im ending this treatment my hippo just passed and all thats left is a pair of clowns and 3 small yellow damsels. all covered in ich. Rocks are still purple, tube anemonie is still doing fine, havent noticed any floating pods. GL and thanks

Paul B · #43 06/14/2007, 05:40 AM

Copper kills tube anemones very fast, it is still alive because all of the copper was absorbed by the calcium rock. There is no free copper in your tank, thats why the fish died.
Sorry.
Paul

happyface888 · #44 06/14/2007, 09:16 PM

Paul can u tell me more about live rocks w/ calcium and the effects of copper when live rock is present. I would much appreciate it if you can provide more information. I always thought that copper stays in tank no matter what you have in there but never thought live rocks w/ calcium could eat it. Thanks

thelostrican · #45 06/15/2007, 12:51 AM

it doesnt eat it, the rock will absorb it, that copper could be release at any time, so you could kill your fish etc at any time, dont treat copper with live rock, copper will kick ich out but you have to be responsible to test it daily, etc...

i use copper almost every time i get a new fish, i put him on 30 long qt tank, and i will give them at least one week of copper.

happyface888 · #46 06/15/2007, 01:16 AM

I asked Seachem, cupramine doesnt get stuck in the rocks unlike normal copper so Im safe for now but it sucks that my fishes died at the end. Yeah regular copper is dangerous w/ live rocks, My tube anemone still thrives guess its not effected. Gl to others who will use cupramine/copper to treat their fishes.

Paul B · #47 06/15/2007, 05:56 AM

Seachem may not be giving you the entire story. Copper will definately kill ich in a few days, even Cuprimine. Calcium absorbs copper weather it is in Cuprimine or not. The copper in Cuprimine is probably cheleated and maybe it is harder to get absorbed in the rock but much of it is in there anyway.
Copper alone works faster than Cuprimine but you have to monitor the dosage closely.

thelostrican · #48 06/15/2007, 04:10 PM

Paul B: i agree, and it does get absorbed, i am talking base on experience with the product.

cupramine is not cheleated, its ionic, and will get absorbed, and if it was chelated, like copper safe, it would still get absorbed, albeit it would take longer...

kevin2000 · #49 06/15/2007, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by thelostrican
cupramine is not cheleated, its ionic, and will get absorbed, and if it was chelated, like copper safe, it would still get absorbed, albeit it would take longer...

Seachem indicates that their product is amine based not ionic .. thats what is suppose to make cupramine the least harsh copper on the market compared with ionic products which are known to be harsh.

Seachem claims that their product is not absorbed by calcium carbonate ... maybe thats true but I have doubts. Perhaps compared to std ionic copper it may be more difficult to absorb but I think their claims are tough to swallow. Who knows .. I am not a Chemist .. but I do know that some inverts are very sensitive to copper and I can't think of any valid reason why one would use Cupramine or any copper product in a show tank.