My tank is dying has this happened to anyone?

[generalee]

Well it seems that my tank is dying slowly. It all started over a month ago, I lost my GOB. I checked water quality and the tests revealed nothing abnormal.
Then I started getting some hair algae growing, I fought this over 2 years ago and never had it since. I thought this was strange. I replaced my DI filter and 2 carbon filters and sediment filter. My TDS showed 0 and it still shows zero today.
Suddenly a week later I noticed my green zoo's not opening fully. Along with that the hair algae is getting worse. I did a water change and then another 5 days later while trying to remove some of the longer hair algae.
Then in mid June my sun coral stopped expanding its tentacles for nightly feeding. I thought this was strange and changed all the parameters, everyhting ok.
About 2 weeks ago my mushrooms started to "melt" and now I have none. 1 rock was completly covered in mushrooms that were 2 inches across and now none. MOre water changes were done, but each time the tests revealed nothing.
Now my sun coral is dead, mushrooms are gone, zoo's are in full retreat and xenia is even on its way out. Water quality tests still show up like always, 0 nitrate, 0 nitrite, ph 8.2, Alk 3.4, salinity 1.025, Ca 450 and temp 80.
Worse part is now my clam looks like it is going to die, I'm not sure becuase this entire time it has shown no signs of stress, until last night. I just don't understand. This tank has been running for almost 3 years without a single hitch. All processes I do have never changed and nothing has been added for a long time now. My 3 fish seem fine, normally gills and all no signs of ich.
I just don't know what could have caused this major meltdown of corals.
As of today here's the fatalities:
1 rock of 9 mushrooms
Sun coral colony
Zoo's
Xenia
Huge frogspawn colony
1 clam probably

No fish or other inverts ( 1 cleaner shrimp and snails) have died or shown any signs of stress. I got a lot of dead corals and hair algae. I've also gone through a lot of salt in water changes so now I am just going to monitor the water and see if the hair algae will go away on its own.

46 g bow front, hob fuge, skimmer and powerheads. 175 MH and 110 PC and kalk drip at night.

[wooglin]

Do a 100% water change making sure that the PH and Salinity match when you do the change. That is what I would do. Or a bunch of 50% changes.

[generalee]

I don't think a 100% water change is a good idea. A lot of benefical things will be lost. A 50% change is sounds ideal, but I would be worried about an unbalanced system shock. If all parameters are equal (salt, Ph, temp and Ca) would 50% be too much or the max to change at one time. And how soon can I do another water change? Maybe I changed too much water in a short period of time? Maybe I did not change enough?

[s13silvia]

does the tank have a DSB? that is the first thing that comes to mind

[MiddletonMark]

What additives do you add to the tank?

[PygmyAngel]

...I'm having a very similar problem.....almost exactly what generalee is experiencing.

not to hijack thread to my problem, but I've been trying to search about this problem on here all day. (Search function not working).

...or at least find a thread about it.

Maybe we have old tank syndrome.

I think I am going to have to remove almost everything from the tank before it all dies on me...scrub off all hair algae, do 50% water change, and clean everything, put back together; I don't know.

All I know is my tank looks nothing like it did a year ago.

[Anemone]

Did you run water through your new DI filter (and discard it) before you started doing water changes? SOme are sprayed with an anti-mildew coating that needs to be cleaned out before the water is safe for inverts....

I'd run carbon in the tank.

Kevin

[generalee]

Yea I'm with you PygmyAngel, my tank looks like it did 3 years ago, even worse.
Yes, I have a very well established DSB. I have LR and I can still see lots of pods and worms running around at night. I have caluerpa (grape) in my fuge that I prune about 2 times a month.
The only additives I use are: Kalk - which I drip everynight and always have
DT's, which I have cut way back on since the begining of this
Selcon, which I haven't been using for a while
and that is it. I do add a little bit of SuperBuffer when required. I haven't been feeding frozen foods either as I know sometimes they can contribute to an ongoing problem.
So I big water change and see what happens? Even if the water changes fix the problem, I still want to know why it started? All I know is that one day everything was fine, then the next it all started going downhill and it hasn't stopped.

[MiddletonMark]

Maybe the sandbed? After a few years, that could harbor a lot of detritus. Just a thought.

One of you mentions having to scrub off hair algae. IMO something is gone wrong if that's becoming a problem.

Hmmm, time to put on the thinking cap for a while.

[eastshores]

Is it possible that you are experiencing a basic tank crash because of a chain reaction of species dieing and polluting the tank? Did you remove any obviously dead items? I would guess that is why you are getting the algae spike. Is it possible copper got into the tank? I'm just throwing out ideas in my inexperience =)

[SPC]

Rampant hair algae growth, plus corals dying slowly, equals high organics IMO, most likely PO4.
Steve

[daveisrael]

When I used to service tanks I had this happen a few times. Once it was because the owner had bought a new fish and added the water from the pet store (that the fish was in) to his tank. Little did he know that the fish store treats their tanks with copper. A little copper can do a lot of damage. Another time it was due to the owner cleaning the glass of his tank with a sponge from the grocery store. The sponge contained an algaecide (this was a more rapid depletion, over about a week, his fish died to though). The only other time I can think of was due to an electric current in the tank from a broken pump. This took a long time, about 6 months of slow depletion. You may want to try something that removes metals. I've had a lot of success using polyfilters. A grounding probe couldn't hurt either. Just my 2 cents though.

[eastshores]

You can use a volt meter to measure for any stray current. I did last night 0.0 Good point on the bag water from the LFS, I believe I did this, but I was probably lucky that the fish I bought was being kept in the LFS coral system.

[PygmyAngel]

generalee,

My tank is over 3 yrs. too. Sounds like our tanks are going thru the same thing.

SPC said "Rampant hair algae growth, plus corals dying slowly, equals high organics IMO, most likely PO4".

This sounds like us, right? I know it's what mine is doing. I've never had hair algae this bad before, and other crap is building up like crazy, and my corals cant' grow cuz the algae won't let them.

SPC: how do we best manage our tanks that are over 3 yrs. and do seem to be having really high organics and PO4 prob?

I feel like we need to do a HUGE water change, and take all the affected rock and coral out, scrub all the algae/detritus/crap off of them to quit the smothering, clean equip., etc, etc.

After doing all manner of major maintenance, and semi-breakdown, cleaning equipment, etc. what else would be good, or what do we need to do that we perhaps have not thought of? I have used Phosphate Sponge and I use Polyfilters. The Polyfilters get brown rather quickly and I don't know how effective the phos. sponge is, or if it's a matter of changing it for 24 hours several days in a row?

Any promising guidance for us who are watching our tanks slowly die in front of us would be much appreciated.

Oh, to answer a question or two...(I don't know about generalee), but my sand bed is not very deep, only a couple inches. And my tank is a 75g, not 120g like generalee's.

Also, I have recently dosed strontium because I thought it might be helpful, as almost all my frogspawn heads started dropping off (my very 1st coral), and an old torch coral died off as well.

But upon reading another thread, I learned this probably made
it worse.

Generalee, does this sound like yours too?

[generalee]

My frogspawn is dead too. That was my first coral, about last to die also. I had fragged that coral 3 times.
Someone mentioned detrius build up on the sand bed, but if I have pods and worms and snails and such, wouldn't they consume the detrius? I have been so successful that I'm not sure how to start over again. Things have been going really good for me.
Anyway, yes I removed the dieing corals and will do a huge water change. I did rinse the RO and the DI filters before I installed them with fresh RO/DI water and then I ran 6 gallons through the system before I started using the water in my tank.
Any pointers on how to start over? A lot of my rock has good coraline on it and the bare spots is where my algae is growing. I will post some pics tonight for those that want to see and feel sick.

[Fat Man]

Bear with me a moment if I sound silly.
The algae indicate a nutrient in abundance.
The coral death indicates a toxin in abundance.
The standard test don't indicate a problem.
Have you run water quality tests on your make up water?
You said you measure the TDS, this was of the RO water, correct?


The question "What is toxic to corals and related forms, doesn't harm fish or crustaceans and is a nutrient to algae?"

Have you painted your house recently or started to use a new cleaning product? Something maybe entering through the atmosphere.

Sorry I cannot offer help, just more questions.

[PUGroyale]

wow...quite a mystery...wish i had the answer for ya. I think if it were me... i'd just say screwit and go BB in a second... ditch that DSB and start anew. Man...I know how awful it is losing ANY specimens...especially when you can't figure out why... hope you guys get some answers...quik.

[PygmyAngel]

generalee,

...I don't even have coralline anymore....I can't bear to post pics of mine. If you go see my photo gallery, you'll understand why. That was when it was beautiful. I fear that I will never see those days again. I mean I have some good things in the tank: the darn anemones seem to last through everything...and I still have my mating pair of Maroon clowns - they don't seem to care what the tank is doing - they are doing what they have to do. Most fish are ok, but not all in great health either. But my star polyps are still beautiful. Everything else - can't even recognize.

Oh yeah, and just like you, I have THOUSANDS of pods, worms, all manner of teeming life all over the sand bed and rock. Shoot, I even have sponges, tunicates, millions of tiny feather dusters, mini-clams, stars, etc. But actually, these must be an indication of the amount of organics and detritus in the tank also, because they are definitely proliferating, but so is the bad junk, too.

And well, my detritus buildup is NOT on the sandbed mainly, it's really on the live rock, and the hair algae has anchored it and won't let me just blow it off anymore, it's stuck pretty good. So the crap is just too thick to where it has to be physically and forcefully removed.

I am going to have to do a huge water change and take everything out and get the gunk off of all the rocks and corals...I just don't want to lose all the cool creatures in the rock when I remove it, and am scrubbing them and whatnot. But as many as I see hiding under rocks and coming out of the sand, maybe I need to thin them out anyway.

Any other thoughts/helpful hints?

[Anemone]

Like SPC said - it sounds like elevated PO4 - like your sandbed is finally full, and is now giving back. Just removing the rocks and scrubbing them may help, but it's probably the sand bed that needs to be pulled (and either replaced or done without).

FWIW,
Kevin

[eastshores]

I usually perform a reasonable amount of "vacuming" when I do my water changes.. there is an incredible amount of detritous that gets trapped in the gravel/crushed coral. Perhaps this sort of maitenance would help?

[MiddletonMark]

IMO, the time is past for such vacuuming [esp as some problem areas could be impossible to get to, under rocks, etc].

Yup, after hearing more ... I'd agree with Anemone. Esp. on the `not very deep' sandbed. But this sounds like the same stories I've heard from people who had major problems with their sandbeds and either completely replaced them or ripped them out. What a royal pain, I agree ... yet perhaps it's time to say `it was a great 3 year run, time to remove all that stored crap and start again, seeding the new bed from this one'.

While there might be lots of bugs ... they can't make nutrients/energy disappear. The eat it, poop over 90% out ... and incorporate the rest into their bodies. Unless you are majorly exporting the critters ... they are just dying in there, decomposing ... and back go the nutrients into the cycle. [IMO of how it works].

Anyway - that's my take. You've got a number of people smarter than I here ... so hopefully you'll get a range of opinions and can choose what works for you

As my fiance likes to point out, I can be wrong. Take with a grain of salt.

[eastshores]

Not to hijack.. but could someone please explain or refer how I can measure for "nutrients" or P04 as some have reffered.. I really think I have a problem in my tank, and would like to confirm it.. but only tests I have are for Amonia, Nitrites, Nitrates, PH, Calcium, and Alk.

[Pezcao]

Here's an expert (from a book I read):

"The continuous flow of tank water carries detritus (uneaten food, solid waste, dead algae, ect.), which is caught in the substrate, clogging the channels through which aquarium water is trying to flow. In worst-case scenario, areas in the sand and beneath become deprived with oxygen (anaerobic) and highly toxic compouns, such as hydrogen sulfide, may form and can whipe out the entire tank. In order to reduce the chances of this happening, stirring the substrate and removing detritus during water changes."

Basically means that as time goes on, detritus is accumulated on subtrate and live rock, areas without oxygen such as parts of the substrate at the bare bottom slowly form highly toxic hydrogen sulfide gas, defore destroying a tank that used to be successful once.

[Frick-n-Frags]

Well I'm going to keep running with the ball here too as I went through exactly this a while ago too.

The only way to achieve long term success in a reef (like 4-5-10 years+) is to do regular removal of contaminants/excess nutrients, replenishment of depleted compounds, and disruption of any stagnating areas.

Not routinely cleaning your sandbed is the prime "stalling" of regular maintenance. A sandbed is miraculous for a period of time, as mentioned while it "fills up", but then you pay the piper at some point. There is no magic waste disintegrator in reefing, only shuffling under the rug(what Mark the "actually pretty smart" guy is saying ).

My last major tank crash (when my tank did exactly what you guys are going through) happened in about 1992 at which time I removed the sandbed(well dolomitebed). All I had left was some really scummy rock and some indestructable moon polyps (green Palythoas) which were shrunken and did not re-open for several years after the incident. I think I had a Kole tang and maybe a baby clown in a 90 at the time and that's what I started over with.

I have had several mini-crashes since which killed some corals while learning to what degree consistent maintenance has to be done. and I was getting better and better and corals were living longer and longer.

However, I even had a mini crash as recently as last summer where my Montis all bleached, some froggies, Stylophora, 2 Pocis and a half dozen Acros died and a huge microalgae bloom happened(cyano, some hair and the long stringy brown snot). What was different after no problems for several years? well here is what I can determine: I started regularly feeding my corals that spring and I also added a second fish, which I had to feed, a few months earlier at xmas.

So start a new level of nutrient input, yet not adjust my maintenance routine and surprise, surprise, 8-9 months later my system OD'd on excess nutrients. Now a year later, my more stringent: detritus siphoning, semi-daily micro snot algae siphoning, algae harvesting, stricter feeding regimen and consistent water changes has brought me back to happy tanks now a year later. The micro algae is mostly gone so I only have to siphon snot maybe once a week.

I really only have LR in glass boxes, so I know there is nothing brewing under the rug, and I once every 3-6 months totally disrupt one of my tanks to get all the hidden corners fluffed up. It is unreal how much dust and garbage collects, just unreal.

This regular maintenance is the only thing that can maintain a tank in equilibrium, as the biology never sleeps. Constant cleaning/removal/disruption/replenishment is the only way to maintain longterm stability and there just is no place for something like DSB in my system because it can't be regularly cleaned and turned over etc. As mentioned also, I wouldn't fear a shallow coarse gravelbed that I could clean with one of those siphon gravel cleaners that doesn't suck up the gravel, just to make sure nothing gets started brewing in the gravel.

So that's what I've learned in whatever 16 years (yeah a REAL slow learner ) IMO, don't give up, just re-tool and stay on it this time around. There is no such thing as "maintenance free" and if you respect that you will do OK.

[PygmyAngel]

Okay...well I can see the detritus all trapped in the hair algae and on the rock. And there's so much of the detritus that after being blown around, well, it just settles back on the rock. So even though I create dust storms, then do a water change, there is only so much of it that can be sucked out. And the rest resettles back on my rock. So, now that the hair algae is trapping it and growing from it, I can't just vacuum or blow away the detritus anymore.

This is why it seems that the only thing I can do is to manually remove the hair algae/detritus, etc. from the rocks and corals that it is all growing on.

Plus, I'm concerned about the sand bed removal idea... I mean if I were to remove most of the bed, and use part of it to reseed new sand in the tank, I would be afraid of an awful recycling dinoflagellate outbreak....because I recently set up a 20g with water from the 75g, and put in new sand mixed with several cups of sand from the 75g - thinking that I would not go thru a huge cycle in the new 20g. Well, I set the 20g up about a month or 2 ago, and it's constantly had this nasty dinoflagellate outbreak - that's got to be what it is, because it's like long brown stringy snot with airbubbles in it... And this crap is not any better than the hair algae prob. in the main tank.

So, I'm afraid if I put a bunch of new sand in with some of the old sand full of critters I might create this new outbreak in my 75g. And no, I never had that outbreak when my 75g was first cycling -I had normal diatoms, etc....but not the nasty snotty gunk.

I feel like I can't win lately

generalee and I should get together and have a support group