My tank is dying has this happened to anyone? - Page 4

Wreck Ferret · #76 07/30/2004, 08:14 AM

I'm not one for testing either but i will occasionally as you say why bother with a mature tank, all the bacteria are taking care of everything BUT i would Check Salinity and PH. It you donâ€™t want to get a whole new range of test kits see if you can get hold of the test strips that you dip and read, or ake some water to a couple of LFS and compare the results for a average.

HTH

Wreck Ferret

cart55 · #77 07/30/2004, 08:48 AM

Wow, that really does suck.... I would hope that you use this info and come back with another reef. Please be careful reusing the old rock and sand. I think using a little of the sand to seed the new is a good idea. I also think a not so dsb might be a consideration for you. I would think twice of reusing the LR. There is some discusion as to the life span of LR. Such as to when the LR is completely"clogged up" or as someone else mentioned "full". Just my.02$ worth.

Good luck

goodman770 · #78 07/30/2004, 01:22 PM

I know an awful lot has been said about this...and I had a similar problem. My tank had been slowly dieing and had become a red slime algae factory. I did a 100% water change. I got two 19 gallon barrells from target, filled them up with water from the tank, and put in power heads. I then syphoned out 5 gallons in a bucket. One by one...I pulled out each and every rock and scrubbed it as best I could in the 5 gallon bucket. When the bucket water got dirty, I dumped it and refilled from the tank. In this way...I'm using tank water to store and clean off. Corals went in one barrell, base rock went in another. Once there were plenty of rocks in the barrells I pulled the fish and put them in there so they had somewhere to hide. Once they were all cleaned out, I syphoned the rest of the tank (including the sand/crushed coral). While this is not great for the cycle of the tank...with 4 fish in a 90...I'm not worried about it. I replaced the water with 40 gallons of R/O water and the rest with tap. While the red algae is slowly fighting back...I started with Kalk and will do water changes with R/O water.
My tank and fish look great. The corals have never been better. I would also look into replacing the membranes in your R/O unit...or borrow someones to make sure that is not the culprit. If the sand bed is replaced....life goes on, and it's better than the alternative.
Best of Luck...

Ehydo · #79 07/30/2004, 02:05 PM

I keep reading and do not understand some of these practices. If you have sand you have to vacuum it just like everything else you use as a substrate. Not vacuuming causes all the detrius to collect there in the sand. This can be noticed in the orginal pictures that generalee posted as the black line of sand under the top sand. This is because the sand is not being churned enough from vacuuming and waterflow. You do not think that the sand in the ocean sits still do you. You can have a happy life with sand. Sand does not go bad it just gets dirty. Clean it. Do Regular maintenance that we all dread.

Anemone · #80 07/30/2004, 02:18 PM

The problem with the very fine sand we use in our DSBs is that you can't siphon-vacuum them - you'll just vacuum out the sand. And stirring the sand is genreally not regarded as a good thing for the critters that live in a specific zone in the sand....

FWIW,
Kevin

Ehydo · #81 07/30/2004, 02:29 PM

How fine of sand are you using? Sugar fine should settle in an hour or 2 everything else stirred up you don't want anyway so filter it out.

generalee · #82 07/30/2004, 04:05 PM

Ehydo, I'm not sure of your experience with a DSB and what you do. From ALL the research and books, you are never suppose to disturb a DSB. The purpose of a DSB is to have the life in/on the bed to take care of it by movement.
My dsb had a fighting conch, 2 tiger tail cucumbers, a lot of worms and snails that would suddenly emerge from under the sand when I fed the tank.

If you think that this is not enough movement for the sand bed, then stirring it and vacuuming would surely be doing nothing at all.

As far as seeing the various levels of color in DSB, you must know that different levels of the DSB do different jobs. When I took the sandbed out, only the glass was colored and not the sand. It wasn't like I had a layer of sand that was all black, the black you see is mainly room lighting on the glass causing the spots because the sides and back were clean.

However, this is my opinion and you can do what you want. Experiment as I am experimenting with a bare bottom, so far I like it. I miss the sand, but I'm still happy.

PygmyAngel · #83 08/20/2004, 04:10 PM

generalee,

How is your tank since the rebuilding? Any new problems? How are you doing maintenance now?

Unfortunately, I have not fixed mine yet, and I am out 4 fishes already. I still have about 7, but they are seriously needing a clean home. I am planning on starting the makeover tonight and working on it thru the wkd. Corals are overgrown by long hair algae still.

I have been reading this thread for the past couple days, and reconsidering my DSB altogether....
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...hreadid=419815

But I don't want to completely kill what is still trying to make it. I just don't know what to do, where to start. Do I take out the DSB? Do I leave it in? Do I do a full water change? Do I not do a full water change? Either way, the hair algae is like, 5 inches long on the glass, and all manner of cyano and crap is growing and the tank has to be pretty much disassembled and reassembled.

Goodman770's step by step process in the few previous posts above seems like a good approach.

Any new ideas or help in what to do is greatly appreciated. I need to post a before and after of my tank. Well, if anyone goes to my gallery they will see my before - the good days. I need to take a camera home tonight and take pictures of the after (now). It's heartwrenching.

Sigh.... anyway, generalee, I hope you have success. I'm anxious to hear how things are doing for you now.

Pygmy

generalee · #84 08/21/2004, 07:36 PM

Things are going good. I am having a little trouble getting my coraline to grow back. Before I would have to scrap the glass like mad every week. Now I still don't have any at all.
I clean the bottom of the tank each week or so when I do a water change. It is important to have a good flow around the bottom.
I have a little hair algae coming back now, but it is very minor and could be cleaned up with snails (which I don't have)
It is amazing to see the amount of debris that builds up on the bottom. To think that all that stuff was just sitting on the sand bed, it is no wonder why my tank crashed.
I do miss the hassle free DSB. But right now I am happy as all my fish are alive and doing well and my zoo's have even returned!
Right now I am working on the plumbing for my SCWD. Hopefully this will be the final step as I am ready for some more zoo's and such.
Good Luck with your choice. Either way you really can't go wrong, just stay on top of whichever method you choose. You can see the pictures of my tank here

PygmyAngel · #85 08/23/2004, 11:38 AM

Well, at least you're back on your feet now. Glad to see you got a new start....

And well, I did the big cleanup this wkd. Took me all weekend. I lost 2 more fishes and the cleaner shrimp. That was heartbreaking, as those 2 fishes I've had over 3 years...*Sigh*...
But I still have 2 mating Maroons, 2 Tangs, 1 wrasse (the 1st fish ever in this tank), and 1 Mandarin. It was a major pain, and you're right - all the crap on the sand, and junk that falls off the rocks...I can't believe anything is alive. I decided not to remove the sand after all, but I will now do water changes and maintenance like when I first started the tank. It doesn't even look like the same tank...I wish it could stay that way - but obviously that will depend on me. It was a hard lesson, a hard fall. Over the past couple weeks, I've lost 7 fishes. If the tank goes down hill like that again, or I lost the rest of the fishes, that will be it for me. So, I hope I can be successful for at least another 3 yrs. and not have this happen again. I will just have to see how things go - I am still considering pulling the sand once and for all, especially when I saw all the detritus just sitting on the sand, even after I tried to get most of it, and it just continually settles back on the rocks. Errr....but I need to keep up the water circulation and frequent water changes...plus I am looking into getting a better skimmer, possibly more powerheads or wavemakers or something....I might put in a refugium at some point, I don't know...

Oh, and I managed to borrow a camera and take some before and after cleaning photos this wkd...I'll post them if I have time
today...you'll see you weren't the only one!

Well, good luck and I hope things continue to get better for you.

...Here's to us having better tanks and a little hope...

Mickey · #86 08/23/2004, 10:13 PM

John:

So sorry to hear about the problems with your tank. I missed seeing this thread earlier as I haven't really had much time this summer for my RC reading. I can understand why you were heartbroken, your tank was beautiful but I'm sure your new look will be as good.

As you know I have had my own tank problems lately. Starting work on my new one now and hope to move what's left over to it in a few weeks.

Glad you have started over rather than giving up.

Mickey

PygmyAngel · #87 08/24/2004, 02:47 PM

Okay, here they are:

Hair algae all over the place, before I cleaned this wk:

And after I cleaned - these photos are no good, they're all purple & you can't tell how clean the tank is in comparison...but I'll post better photos soon...

This is how it USED to look:

....maybe someday it will be as colorful again.

melev · #88 08/24/2004, 03:49 PM

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lightngsvt · #89 08/24/2004, 03:59 PM

Wow, what a scary thread thread. My current 29g has about 4.5" DSB, but FO. Its going on 2 years now. Im in the middle of an upgrade to a bigger tank (I have a 72 bow, but am thinking of a 125g instead). I really like the look of a substrate bed.

So from your experiences which would you recomend, "fine" CC, or sugar sand? I was think of doing .75 - 1.0" of "fine" CC that way I still get he look, but can easily vacuum the bed of the detritus. What is your thoughts?

PygmyAngel · #90 08/24/2004, 05:22 PM

Well, darn. I guess I'll put these photos in this gallery and try again...sorry....

I'll post when I have them viewable.

PygmyAngel · #91 08/25/2004, 05:44 PM

....trying again to post hair algae pics before cleaning:

...I will take good photos tonight to show what it looks like after cleaning.

Here's what it USED to look like:

...so, new clean pics to follow tomorrow...

anabolic_1 · #92 08/25/2004, 07:09 PM

Hello All,
First off I would like to thank each and every one of you who have contributed to this thread, I have learned more in the past hour reading all the post than I have learned in the 17 years I have been in this hobby, so TY! You can see tank specs and hobby exp below. When I first got into saltwater fish, the guy I bought the tank from asked me what kind of substrate I wanted (he ordered every thing for me) sand or CC, when he explained the difference between the two, he told me to siphon out 1/3 of the sand every year and replace it with fresh, he said to divide my sand into the sections, take out the left section and replace with new sand, next year take the right section and so on. I found this to be a PITA so I decided on the CC, never had a single problem with any algae, ditom, cyano, nothing. Years ago, I swithed to reef (had to take my tank apart and re-seal base board heaters...LOL) I decided to use shells I have collected over the years as my substrate, I retained the CC in the back of the tank for my rocks to rest on, over the years buying corals adding live rock, my tank is filled with rock right to the front glass. Now, that being said, I am having exactly the same problems that many of you are having, hair algae all over and all parameters at 0. So maybe that age of the sand bed does not matter, maybe its the fact, as someone mentioned early, maybe it needs to be cleaned or replaced from time to time?
Any thoughts?
Mike.

*the point I was making about the rock coming out to the front glass, is the fact that I can't clean my substrate really well!!

wasp · #93 08/25/2004, 07:28 PM

Well hate to say it, but IMHO, CC or shell is the worst, in that it holds the most crud.
I too have been there, and done most of these things over the years. I now believe, that bare bottom is the best way to go, who knows, perhaps some new innovation will come along that will change that, but with current technology, BB is the best way to keep pollution, and therefore algae etc. to a minimum.
Also, It took me a while to go BB because I like the look of a substrate. But with good landscaping it is not too bad. You can see my BB tank in my gallery.

^CelticReefer^ · #94 08/25/2004, 08:04 PM

IMO I am really glad I didn't go with a DSB with my reef,
In my experience I love CC as a substrate. Its easy to clean, my zoo and ric frags attach and give me something to glue to ect.....
I actually was having a red algae problem myself recently and siphoned my entire CC bed over the corse of a week, and while removing everything from the tank was a royal PITA, it now looks beautifuly white and the algae is gone. My coraline has also began growing on my glass again, which it hasn't in quite some time, which I credit high phosphate levels to my slow down. I should of took pictures but my reef is 5 years old and this was the first time I ever syphoned, I removed around 4 five gallon buckets each time and that water was MUD! ( Clogged the drain a few times ) I was really shocked at the amount of crap that was in my subsrate. I don't think I will make the syphoning of my CC a habit, but a few years down the line I will do it again for sure.
Just my 2 cents.
Brian

TheBimbo · #95 08/25/2004, 09:48 PM

Mariner77... Did you notice any problems when siphoning out your CC ??? I'm sure it's just the same as siphoning out a fresh water tank's gravel !!! some of the junk that would come out of my 55 was horrible... We have been battling H/A for the last few months, our tank as well, had turned from healthy looking to just plain ickkyy... After weekly water changes, things are finally looking good again... My hairy mushrooms once again are huge!!! And my mushrooms are starting to multiply, and some of my xenia are also spreading... So, we are now firm believers in the use of R/O water and consistant tank maintenance!!! We have been seriously thinking of removing the LSB, and replacing it with the CC, as I also like the looks of the " white " bottom at the tank, makes it look brighter... so I am trying to investigate this as best as I can...

Soo many different views to this particular issue, it's amazing!!!

melev · #96 08/26/2004, 01:13 AM

I ran my 29g reef with CC for over 6 years, and siphoned it about every 4 months. It was a hassle, but indeed I was able to suck out a ton of detritus. I would even add more water just so I could continue to siphon more, until 10g of brown vile water was collected in buckets.

I like the look of sand better, and that is what is in my current 280g.

PygmyAngel · #97 08/30/2004, 07:19 PM

Okay, got some photos after I cleaned up the tank:

Photos are not very good, and are dark...but you can see the huge difference from before and after....

...although it is still not the same as before the crashing...

I also lost more fish in the huge cleanup effort. Very sad...

Dag · #98 08/30/2004, 11:51 PM

Some folks are quick to blame an old DSB. I had a tank meltdown like the one described herein after 6 mos. All my parameters were fine. It took about 6 months before my tank stabilized and I could grow things again.