So you got a new fish tank Newbie

[WaterKeeper]

Hi Mike

To Reef Central

Ramen noodles huh? I didn't even know what they were (except for a form of spectroscopy) until I took an all expense paid government trip to SE Asia in the late 60's.

I get so busy this time of year with the primaries and all. As a political reporter for Field & Screem, I spend all my time at the polls looking for hanging and dimpled Shad-

From- "Shad Alosa sapidissima--An Ameircan Political Red Herring"


Anyway, let's add a little to this part of the thread about "fuges".

One of the things, IMO, about "Fuge's" is that "Less is More". (This thread is so full of IMO that I can't believe anyone follows it. However, if your tank fails you can always attribute it to following the advise of an obliviously deranged reefer.)

There are two things a fuge needs-[list=1][*]Live Rock[*]Live Sand[/list=1]
Everything else is optional.

If your refugium is fairly small you will want to go all out on the live sand. That is, if you find a supplier that has LS that is teaming with copepods and other wee critters, then try to get as much as you can for your fuge. The whole idea in setting up a refugium in the first place is to provide a lovers nest for the invertebrates that would be gobbled up in the main tank. There is a trend toward larger and larger refugiums. If you are looking at one of these mega-fuges then try to use as much LS as you can afford when setting it up. Southdown is OK but you want a really biologically active bed in a refugium, so spring for as much LS as you can get. You'll want at least a 4" bed and you can go deeper if you have the sand.

The LR doesn't need to be as plentiful as you use in the main tank. If you do find some nice LR with lots of fan worms and other critter the fuge is a good location to place it. Very often these critters will migrate to the main tank over time and the LR in the fuge will continue to supply them in the future.

If you are setting up a fuge after you have your main tank populated you want to be careful about adding LR to a fuge or main tank. Isolate the rock for a few days and observe it carefully. The reason for this is the there is always the possibility of bringing in some harmful critters. Chief among them is the little anemone know as Aiptasia--



Take it from me these little critter are not something you want in your tank. They will take over in no time flat and you will be spending day after day, injecting them with various remedies, to eliminate them. A little quarantine time is suggested to avoid introducing them into your tank-especially an established tank.

I need to leave for today but our good ole "Doc Ron" has some info on other critters to avoid Ron's Rogue Gallery

I’ll talk about macro algae and detirovore kits next time.

[WaterKeeper]

Well, now that I have all you Newbies less in love with those beautiful little Anemones that came with your LR; let's get on with it Very often people ask me how to have a "bullet proof" tank. The answer is to get some LR loaded with Aiptasia. No amount of mis-treatment or poor water quality seems to hinder their growth.

If you can't get sand that is up to snuff, then you may consider getting a "Ditrivore kit". For those of you who are really true Newbies, Detrivores are the garbagemen of the Marine tank. In the group, Junkfoodivore ( a subgroup of Snackivores), they live at the bottom of the food chair, literally!

Pods. bristleworms, mini-stars, small shrimp and other sand dwellers make up this group of critters whose idea of a good meal is leftovers. Most are nocturnal and send their time feasting, after the bars close, on the leftover debris of the daytime party goers

In a good LS they will be numerous. You may not see them during the day but use a red lens covered light a few hours after dark and you can see them cavorting on the sandbed. If your sand is lacking in these little gems then all is not lost. You can purchase "Detrivore kits" from many of the on-line suppliers on RC. Usually they contain some bristle worms, brittle stars and copepods. When seeding a fuge you want as much diversity as possible but lean toward those that contain a lot of "pods", mysids and other small shrimp.

Although expensive, around $60 for a complete kit, they can be the difference between a successful fuge and a mediocre sand bed.

Oh, Oh gotta go! I hate that when it happens and I'm on a roll..

Get back to you Monday

[daring]

Dear Waterkeeper,

Thank you for all the wonderful information,

I have a question for you regarding the sump/refuge subject,

You said " Last we have the in-sump fuge. This is probably the worst method. Yes, baffles can slow the water flow but one of the ideas of the sump is to provide an area for mechanical and chemical filters. One of the main foods of the fuge's critters are small particulates and DOM (dissolve organic matter). It is really hard to design an in-sump fuge that allows these materials to accumulate. Also, we run into the problem of again needing to subject our "bugs" to high pump velocity and heads."

I would like to know if you have any ideas for making an in-sump fuge that works, assuming there were no limits as to how this could or would be done! I'm In the process of seting up my 75 gallon and would like to do it the best way possible. My friend has an Acrylic shop that is capable of making just about anything .

Thank you,
Darin G.

[WaterKeeper]

Hi daring

To Reef Central

Let me ponder that question for a bit. I'll tackle it in the next day or two.

[daring]

Thanks WaterKeeper,

Just thought I would ask, since I'm in the begining stages of setting up my system. I would like to provide the best environment that I can for my future animals to keep them alive and healthy for as long as possible.

Sincerely,
Darin G.

[JohnM99]

There are several clever designs for an in-sump fuge posted on RC - it takes a bit of work to find them, but a search will find them. They involve splitting the sump into two parts - a larger, slower flow part(fuge), and a smaller higher flow part(sump/skimmer). The return from the tank is split accordingly. Some of these designs were very space efficient.
Most of the commercial ones are designed for bioballs and such. Check out the DIY forum. Some clever folks there.

And if you have an acrylic fabricator for a friend, you can make something fabulous.

[Bergtril]

Thanks for your info Waterkeeper.

I have a question: Protein skimmers are used to remove excess proteinaceous material and other substances that gather at the gas-liquid interface. I appreciate the reason behind removing these compounds, but my question is really whether this is required. Not that I'm trying to stress my new tank, torture my inhabitants or anything (quite the opposite!) but I'm wondering if this material would not be consumed by all the other little critters in a well established and balanced tank - something that mine isn't yet Does it have something to do with reduction/consumption rates that just can't keep up with product formation?

Hang on...this is starting to sound like a bit of chemistry...er...Waterkeeper?

Thanks for all your help.

Barry

[WaterKeeper]

Hi Barry

To Reef Central

Always glad to welcome a moonshiner in training aboard.

Couple of good posts while I was pondering (actually I consult with an astrologer when contemplating a question).

On the skimmer thing Barry it is pretty much a mixed vote with maybe a slight edge to the skimmer crowd. Many people do run very good tanks without a skimmer. Others, like moi, favor using them as an extra tool for nitrogen export from the tank. If, as you say, the tank is balanced and the bioload not to high, then not using a skimmer is a good choice. It is a bit like using an UGF on a FW tank to allow more fish to be added. A skimmer allows you to perhaps add a little more load on the tank than you would without one.

How listen up People---I love reefers like John who obviously use the Search function on RC and do a bit of research

There are indeed plans for in-sump refugia buried in threads all over RC, especially in the DIY forum. I now shall explain why I'm not real crazy about having the "old fuge" located there.

The main point in having a fuge is to allow for the reproduction of copepods and other critter to serve as food for the bigger critters in the main tank. When I started talking about having a fuge I said we want to allow some of these wee guys in the fuge to migrate the main tank. They will not do a lot of good just hanging around in the fuge.

With the fuge located in the sump it usually means that the migration occurs through the big old return pump used to create circulation for the main tank. In a tank like Darin's this pump will need to be 750-1500 gph (12.5-25 gpm) and have the ability to apply enough pressure to overcome the discharge head. Pods and other critters going from the fuge, through the sump and then to the main tank are in for on heck of a rough journey. That is why I like the fuge to have it's own return to the main tank where the environment will be less sever.

Centrifugal pumps come in a variety of types. Radial flow designs use the impeller vanes to create centrifugal force inside the pump and use this velocity head to propel the water to the return line. since there is clearance between the impeller vanes and the volute (pump casing) they do not sheer as much as others. Most inverts in the sump can probably surive the trip.

Unfortunately, they are not very efficient, and when high flows/heads are needed, then a mixed or axial type pump is perferred. Here the impeller vanes are close to the volute ( a location known as a cut-water) and sheer forces are much greater. This can blend the fragile critters from the sump into "pod soup".

You can use a slower speed pump, with an electronic controller, to sepaperately convey the material from the in-sump fuge to the main ank but the resulting cost is much higher. Check with the pump manufacturer to see if the pump has a tight cut-water clearance. If it does look at other, similarly rated, pumps for the fuge.

I mentioned air lift pumps. These work like the skimmer. The only problem with these is the size of the air pump. You Whisper 500 is not going to supply anything near the amount of air you need to convey the large volume of water you need in the return. Compressors with this capasity are going to be large and noisy.

I guess what I'm saying is I had my druthers the fuge would be outside the sump.

[Zaphod]

So in your opinion is it best to have the fuge after the sump and gravity fed into the main tank? I have my fuge almost finished and am just trying to figure out the plumming.

[daring]

WaterKeeper,

Thank you for your comments and also to John thank you as well, I love the search button and I have been using it for about the last four months not to mention the over three hundred hours I have spent reading the forums and other misc. including Eric Borneman's book on Corals (fantastic). I have deffinently learned an invaluable amount of information about Reef Keeping. While I have seen alot of different designs and concepts on sumps/refugiums and have a good understanding of what a refugia is suppossed to be used for, my question was" if given there were no limits on how this could be designed what would be the best way to build it so it would be functionable in all aspects?" But given your answer it appears that this is more complicated then it sounds and really doesn't seem to be a very effective way to do this without an air lift pump that I couldn't possibly make work with my setup being in my home office.

Thank you for now!

Darin G.

[Cody00SS]

Just tagging along. Thank you for all of the great information Waterkeeper, I have learned so much from this thread

[phendo]

Waterkeeper,

I've purchase one dual and a single 400W pfo ballasts. I'm running 10K Hamilton bulbs. I have rotated the bulbs from socket to sockets and it appears that one socket burns brighter than the others. Is this unusual or common place? Confused

[WaterKeeper]

Phendo,

To me it sounds like a wiring problem. I'm not sure, so I moved your post to the Lighting Forum for expert advise. You'll find it here Phendo's Question

They have some REAL live wires over there.

[WaterKeeper]

Nickolas,

Yes sir, for a smooth transfer, without whipping the bugs into a soup, I like a pump feed TO the refugium and a gravity flow FROM the refugium back to the main tank. It really doesn't matter if the feed to the fuge is from the main tank or the sump. Of corse, you want the fuge to only go to the main tank as putting it through the sump would defeat the purpose of the gravity feed.

Darin,

People do run in-sump fuges and a lot of bugs will survive the trip through the main pump back to the tank. I just feel the gravity return is the best method but by all means it is not the only method. Don't forget that this thread is only based on my opinions and is not the last word on how to do things.

I too did a little research on airlift pumps and they are not practical except for something like a nano tank. They work just like a skimmer but need more air--unfortunately a lot more air. To get the 12.5-25 gpm flow you need for your tank would mean having an air pump to deliver 1.67 to 3.33 cubic feet per minute. It would also need to do this at 3 psi for just a 6' lift height. Such a pump is large and noisy and I doubt anyone would want to use it unless you could place it in some remote location.

If you use an electronic controlled centrifugal pump, where you can adjust the pump's rotation speed, it still needs to deliver the minimum circulation rate to the tank. That means the pump needs to be a large diameter with larger motor. This increases cost considerably.

By all means go ahead and put a fuge in your sump. Many, many people do. I just wished to point out why that is not the best solution and why.

Everybody OK with that?

Well, speak up Cody!

[Cody00SS]

Sir, yes, sir!!!!

I am in the planning process of a 125G my self and am stumped by a few things:

1) How do I calculate head loss for the pump in my sump (hey, I'm a poet and didn't know it :-)). I plan on running a GEN-X 4100 submersible pump, but it's not listed in the head loss calculator on RC. Is there another online calculator I could use?

2) On a closed loop, I have heard there will be no head loss, so does that mean that all the bends in the pluming won't affect anything, or will this at least lessen their affect?

[dmiannay]

Cody,

While Waterkeeper is away I thought I'd give you a link to a water pump site that may have the information you need. Go to: http://reefs.org/library/pumps/

Also, head pressure is always a factor for any flow-rated pump since tubing and bends can't help but be resistance to flow. A closed loop will effectively reduce the zero head flow of a pump to some extent.

If I'm wrong, no doubt someone with more advanced knowledge in this area will chime in

Have fun with your 125!

[JohnM99]

Regarding damaging the "soup" from the fuge with pumps - I have read elsewhere that microscopic evaluation on the effect of a magnetic drive pump on the type of critter found in a fuge shows very little negative effect.

Put another way, if you want to puree your fuge critters, a water pump is a lousy way to do it. So, it is probably a good way to return fuge water - since most of us don't hang a 50 gal tank from the ceiling above the main tank! (now THAT would get my better half excited).

I wonder if just putting in a divider to keep fish out would do - if you had a nice big tank, and put a screen or egg crate type divider to separate the main tank from a quiet fuge area, that would probably work. But my tank / space isn't big enough.

If you have ever been to the Seaquarium in Curacao, that is how they keep the people away from the huge nurse sharks and turtles - a clear divider with lots of holes, so you can dive on one side, and pass food through to the hungry monsters on the other side. Gives you an idea what it would be like to be a planktonian in a refuge. Humbling.

[Mike4284m]

BURP!

uh . . . I mean BUMP!

Just got back from snorkeling in San Salvador, The Bahamas . It was absolutely amazing. Just wanted to share with people that would appreciate it.

Mike

[Mike4284m]

where did everyone go?

[thewuf]

Oh WaterKeeper....

Where fore art thou? Do not leave us now when we're so close to starting our own tank. We needth this information for planning purposes!

(No idea why a southern Shakespeare took over my keyboard)

[WaterKeeper]

wuf,

I promise to get back on track tomorrow. I've been kinda busy for the past week or so and am guilty of ignoring this thread. For those of you that have sent me a PM on the algae in the fuge, I'll expand on it when I get thing rolling on Tuesday.

[WaterKeeper]

AWOL!!! You think I'm AWOL? DIQ* maybe but AWOL, Never

*DIQ=Drunk in Quarters for you non-military types.

Let's put on the GREEN!


Algae that is. As I said earlier a fuge should be very plain. You don't want fish or corals in it. The idea here is to provide a safe haven for the Wee People. You do want to have some greenery. One way is to let algae grow on the tank walls. Kinda let the tank get grungy. Pods just love to live, and breed, in a nice mat of algae.

Another thing many grow in their tanks is some type of Macro-algae. One of the most common to see in a fuge is Caulerpa. This macro is easy to come by and has several pleasant shapes. It grows fast and is easy to prune for nutrient export. This fast growth is also thought by many to be a drawback. If you don't maintain it with pruning it can quickly spread throughout your system and become invasive. You'll need to buy one of these in that case.



Another nice macro is Halimeda. Halimeda is a much slower growing macro algae and is sometimes said to be difficult to grow. I think part of the problem is that this algae is a calcifying algae that needs high calcium levels (~400 ppm as Ca) and fairly high alkalinity (>2.5 meq/L). You also cannot prune it as heavily as you would Caulerpa.

Faster growing, but less commonly found, is Ulva. about twice the growth rate than Halimeda is has a compact form that adds to the decore even if it escapes into the main tank.

Valonia is often seen in tanks but is considered a pest by most reefers. I'd avoid it when setting up a fuge.

The light needed by most Macros varies but usually something in the range of 3-4 watts per gallon in a 24" deep sump will be sufficient. Lamps in the 6500-10,000K range are best for algae growth in a fuge. Some Caulerpa species do well under substantially less light but growth is reduced.

I'll talk about setting up a Mangrove swamp next time.

[Mike4284m]

^^^

[JohnM99]

What do you think about Chaetomorpha or spaghetti algae? I have heard good rumours about it.

[WaterKeeper]

OK, OK Mike--I can take a hint.

One of the often asked things about macro algae is, "how do you plant it?" Well gang it is algae and doesn't have roots. What are often thought of as roots are holdfasts that anchor the algae but don't uptake nutrients like a true plant. With Caulerpa you can push it into the sandbed and anchor it with a small piece of rock. If it gets loose it won't hurt it. Halimeda and Ulva attach to rocks and are usually sold already anchored to some rock.

Another thing that you may hear about are the so-called algae foods. I'd avoid them like the plaque. One of the reason for having algae is to reduce nutrients. Many of the additives add them. You will find algae grows better in an aged and stocked tank. Such tank have more algae "food" available. The one addition that you often come across is iron. Our resident chemistry droid, Randy wrote this--Iron Supplementation

That article came under some hot debate. My own point of view is not to add something for which you can't test. If you have an iron test kit I'd limit iron levels to less that 0.5 mg/l and not just "dose" and iron supplement by chance.. That still is many times the levels found in NSW. I think that droids like high iron levels because of their construction.

Algae is not the only thing seen in a fuge. True plants such as sea grasses can also be added. One of the popular addition is a tree. No, you didn't goof when you finally got rid of that Christmas tree last week.

I'm talking about Mangroves. Now, having these trees in ones tank was quite a rage in the late 90's. They were touted as the greatest biological filtration system available. Indeed, they provide good nutrient export and perhaps can remove certain toxic metals. They can also get quite large. The most popular, the red mangrove, Rhizophora mangle, grows to about 60 feet tall in the wild. You have to be into Bonsai to keep them manageable, which may account for some drop in their popularity as of late.

Plants are usually purchased as "seeds". More of a pod, it resembles a long sting bean, 6-8" long. The most used method of starting them is to make a Styrofoam raft, punch holes in it to hold the seeds and float it in the tank with the root half of the pod submerged. Note that the roots are the bump or node at one end of the pod.

If you are going to start them is your fuge make sure you can hang a grow light above it. You'll also probably want to suspend the plants when established from eggcrate so light can reach the fuge.

Anyway, eventually (and I'm told it takes a few months) the plant will have a good root system and start to show greenery at the top. Congrats--your fuge is now a mangrove swamp and you can add some gators and snakes.

There is a wealth of info on RC about growing Macro Algae and Mangroves. Far more than I can add to this thread. Go here for all your gardening needs. Marine Plants & Macroalgae

You happy now Mike?