The Frogfish Files

[Mr. Ugly]

Sad news... my painted frogfish died last night

I fed him Sunday evening, and on Monday afternoon he began coughing and threw up the food had eaten. He seemed ok after that and went about his usual routine of hanging onto his favorite rocks for the rest of the day.

Around midnight last night, he started swimming around a lot and kept darting to the top of the tank. He would settle down on some spot, then swim back and forth again. Less than 2 hours later he was dead.

He was about 4.75 inches long. I fed him a ~1/2"-5/8" cube of fish or shrimp twice a week. I had added about 10 extra lbs of live rock and a few lbs of live sand to his tank on Saturday. Normally he eats on Saturday, but after the aquascaping he didn't want to eat. On Sunday, I gave him a small piece of food, and a second piece 1/2 the size of the first one.

I tested the water at 2 A.M. this morning. NH3 - 0, NO2 - 0, and NO3 - 15. Earlier in the week, I added some nassarius to the sand, and chaeto to the in-tank fuge. Hermits, snails, brittle star, shrooms, zoos, and lps in the tank looked fine.

I'm wondering if the 1.5 chunks of food did him in. It didn't seem like that much for an angler that size. But the way he acted, it looked like when other anglers swallowed something too big to digest.

[Reefcherie]

I'm really sorry to hear that! It sounds like the aquascaping might have stressed the angler out a bit. I wonder if theireability to digest food is less after a somewhat stressful event....

A fish throwing up the food they've taken in is never a good sign. When you refer to a "cube" of fish or shrimp, do you really mean a cube as in the little frozen cubes we buy for our fish? I envision a "cube" as being just as wide as it is long and just as deep. The fish I feed my angler are longer than what you mentioned, but they have little depth. The marine shrimp also have little bulk to them.... perhaps that makes a difference. Obviously I'm just guessing.

Again, sorry for your loss.

Cheri

[Mr. Ugly]

Hmm... maybe stress. But he did seem ok on Sunday... good color, normal breathing, normal activities.

The food wasn't cube shaped, but roughly an amount equivalent to a cube of that size. I buy frozen fish and shrimp from a local asian fish market. For feeding, I cut off a chunk with kitchen shears. I rinse in warm water, defrost, and dose with selcon.

He used to eat about three or four 3/4" long ghost shrimps per meal, so I tried to give him about that amount of food at a time. Just enough to get a tiny pot belly. Not really swollen or anything. And I'd wait until his belly was gone and there was some angler poop in the tank before feeding again.

[Reefcherie]

Oh, OK. There's nothing about that that strikes me as a problem.... how long had you been using that method of feeding thawed fish or shrimp? Anything different at all about the meal that was thrown up? A different type of fish?

One common thing I've noticed is that when frogfish die it is always a very short time from looking fine to being dead.

I'm stumped. Sorry I couldn't be more helpful. Every time I think to myself that I'm going to work harder on switching Fuggly off live food, I hear about something like this and think I should leave well enough alone.

Cheri

[uberfugu]

Sorry to hear about your loss. I feed my anglers via stick for the most part. Impaled silversides for the big ones, live ghost shrimp for the smaller ones. The big guys are so aggressive, they've tried to swallow the handle of my net and the feeding stick. I've been wondering if gut impaction from very hard shelled animals is possible? I have small blue-legged hermits, Nassarius and Astereas snails with my anglers; I would imagine that these hard shells would be hard to digest. I've never seen any of my frogs go after these animals but they have chased down and inhaled pistol shrimp and cleaner shrimp. Anyone have any experience with this?

[clsund]

Something that I've never seen mentioned is the freshness of the frozen food. I'm wondering if this ever has anything to do with frog fish deaths. Being cantonese, we obssess about freshness in seafood. I can taste the fishyness right away when I eat seafood that is not the freshest. Perhaps the same goes for frogfish?

[Reefcherie]

I have no hermit crabs in w/ Fuggly, but have a variety of snails. To my knowledge, he's never shown any interest in them. Any shrimp in the same tank I guarantee would be toast though. I have fed 2" and 2.5" marine shrimp on a regular basis with no problem - in fact given that the shrimp respond to his lure and he catches shrimp so much more easily than fish, I've been assuming that in his natural environment, shrimp would be a primary of his diet. Crabs may be another story though.

One thing I wonder about - when frogfish catch live food, they always wait until the prey is oriented to go into their mouth head first. This may ensure that things like gills or shell don't get caught on their internal organs or throat or something. When food is fed in pieces, I wonder if that can be an issue? Just thinking aloud.

Cheri

[Mr. Ugly]

Cheri, he had been eating frozen food since early December of last year. The fish I gave him on Sunday was from the same batch he had been eating.

You might be right about food getting stuck. He sure did having a coughing fit, like he was trying to hack something out. That was maybe 18 hours after he last ate.

Uberfugu, I fed mine with a stick too. I attached a piece of fishing line to the stick and thread it through the food. When he grabbed the food, the line slips out of his mouth.

He pretty much ignored the snails and hermits. Other than stepping on them sometimes, that is. If the starfish rested an arm on him, sometimes he reached out and pushed it off. He did sorta stalk the emerald crabs when he first saw them. But he never went for them. The first time the emerald crab saw him, the crab walked right up to him, stared for a while, and slowly reached out and pinched him under the chin. After that, they ignored each other.

Clsund, yah Cantonese here too. The frozen fish was fishy, but not spoiled or anything.

[smoke15]

Cherie
I was all prepared to chunk down the several hundred dollars to buy those live 2 inch shrimp. For the past couple of weeks or so I have been waving dead silversides in my anglers face. He wanted nothing to do with it. I waved it slow, I waved it fast, I poked it right in front of his mouth. He would not bite.
However, I read the post about anglers liking prey facing them head first. In my case, that did the trick. The dead silverside has to have a head, and it has to face him. I thought it was a fluke, but he has taken dead silversides in that way a few times now. I hope my luck continues. Great tip!

[uberfugu]

The headfirst trick is a must when first feeding inanimate foods, but after a while, I've found that my frogs will start waving their illiciums when they see me with the feeding stick and will take almost any food product waved in their face.

I do, however, have a 2-1/2" in pictus that refuses anything on a stick. I have a 1-1/2" pictus that even eats bits of Fun Feeders presented on a stick; these food bits don't even resemble fish

[smoke15]

Why is it better to feed anglers two "big meals" instead of smaller daily meals like most fish?

[brreef]

Hi, I have been tagging along on this thread for awhile now and I'm thinking about a frog fish. I have a 75GAL in-wall tank. what I would like to do is build a separate tank to house the frog fish. It would also go in the wall (above my main tank) and be plumbed out if the same 55gal sump that the 75 uses. My question is what is the smallist species. I ask because the tank I would have to build will have to fit between the wall studs 16''. water quality should not be a problem sharing water with the rest of the system. My concern is room for the fish it-self and possible stress that to small a space may cause .

[Reefcherie]

Originally posted by smoke15
Why is it better to feed anglers two "big meals" instead of smaller daily meals like most fish?

In the wild, anglers are ambush predators that catch a fish or shrimp that comes by. Their digestive system is abnormally slow as compared to many fish, so they simply sit there and don't attempt to catch another fish that comes by until they've digested the first one. Aquarists are trying to duplicate the same situation in our tanks. Many people have experienced frogfish deaths from what appears to be overfeeding. Since it is difficult to know when the digestion has actually taken place, it seems prudent to wait a couple of days.

Cheri

[Reefcherie]

Originally posted by brreef
My question is what is the smallist species. I ask because the tank I would have to build will have to fit between the wall studs 16''. water quality should not be a problem sharing water with the rest of the system. My concern is room for the fish it-self and possible stress that to small a space may cause .

I believe there is a Hawaiian frogfish that stays quite tiny, but I don't know if you can get one easily. Among the most commonly imported anglers that stay small, the Warty (A. maculatus) stays the smallest - only to ~4". A. pictus also doesn't get very big; just be sure you have one correctly identified, since A. commersons looks very similar but grows to football size! Those two species of angler can be kept in a fairly small tank. Keep in mind that they do like to change ambush locations every few hours throughout their day.

Cheri

[brreef]

Thanks, I have time to play with. it will be some time before I do it. do they move up and down on the rock work? I will have to build this out of acrylics and have some room for depth just not width.

[Reefcherie]

Originally posted by brreef
do they move up and down on the rock work? I will have to build this out of acrylics and have some room for depth just not width.

I believe the answer (at least in my case) is that yes they do. When I had a fairly tall (probably14-15" tree sponge in the refugium with my angler, I'd often see him perched up in it (he actually matched his coloring nearly exactly to that sponge). I see him at various times nearly anywhere in the tank - though always where he can "anchor" himself a bit.

What are the dimensions of the little tank that you are thinking of?

Cheri

[brreef]

16x22, My display tank is in the wall under my basement steps so that's about all the room I have. there is a picture in the photo gallery under fish tanks row 2 third picture over as of now.
Im trying to find the time to post better pic's

[Reefcherie]

I think 16" x 22" could work just fine (maybe 18" high?) for A. maculatus or A. pictus. That would be a great tank since there are no worries of water quality given that water from the main tank will flow through it.

My experience - be sure you get good flow through so that you aren't always fighting nuisance algae issues, but have sufficient live rock that the frogfish can anchor itself and isn't blown all over the joint!

Cheri

[smoke15]

Angler I got from Anthony about a month or so ago.

[uberfugu]

That is a beauty Smoke15. I have seen a few like that lately. Can anyone ID him? It seems that they have a long illicium with a very reduced esca if any. I am suspecting Genus Lophiocharon.

[Bio-Mass]

I have a problem my angler would eat. It's been at least two weeks now. He's been in my tank for over a year now and I have been feeding him sliversides about every four days ever since I got him.
He looks ok, nothing unsual. I'm kind of worried he's never gone this long with out food.

[Reefcherie]

That would worry me as well. Does he move around? Mine changes ambush position every 3-4 hours. If you have observed any patterns like that with your frogfish, is he still doing the things that are "normal" for him and just not eating, or have other behaviors changed?

It might be worth your while to get a small live marine feeder fish or several ghost shrimp and see if something different might stimulate his appetite. I've heard of anglers that take prepared foods losing interest before.

Cheri

[lunker101]

Ive been looking into anglers for a few months now. I was going to put one in my 50g but ended up making a peacefull reef instead. Now i have setup a 6g eclipse that i plan on putting a baby wartskin in until he gets fairly and then hopefully move him to a 20 or see what the state of my 50 is like. I was wondering what the best online retail sites are; my LFS greatly overprices their anglers and rarely ever get them in.

[Bio-Mass]

He has been moving around to different sites. I'll try the live feeder see how that goes.
Hey lunker101 I have never ordered online but LiveAquaria or Marine Depot Live have anglers for a reasonable price.

[ellamaeruth]

Hi all, new to frogfish and I found you thanks to uberfugu.

Hey lunker101, where are you located? I might be able to come up with a better lfs near you.

I just got my first angler, a sargassum. He's so awesome. Thanks for all the good info here.