Stars & Stripe Puffer Sick?

[pt045]

I think our Puffer is sick. Day 3 he hasn't eatten. Eyes look like they are covered with a white cloud film. It looks like he is shedding a layer of scales or like he has dry skin. Help!

[ratedgl]

does it also look like he has white dots all over him...almost like dandruff?

[pt045]

yes

[capt. insano]

sounds like ich....how long has your tank been up and running? How large is the tank? How long have you had the puffer?

Do a search on "ich" and "hyposalinity" and hopefully that will help you.

You will also need to determine what is causing the stress, leading to the ich outbreak. What are you tank parameters? If you have any measureable ammonia and/or nitrites...that could be causing the problem and will need to be fixed asap.

[whodah]

heya capt!

<-- pt045's 'lesser' 1/2, heh!

this isn't as high resolution as it gets, but:


full resolution at:
http://www.whodah.com/modules.php?fu...view_photo.php

and more pics at:
http://www.whodah.com/modules.php?se...view_album.php

on the pic above, can you see ick? on his fins especially? probably easier if you click the first link to see the huge pic..

at any rate, do you concur even more now?

tank:
55G tank - i know it's too small. doing an upgrade, convinced pt045 of it but it won't happen tomorrow.. couple weeks, maybe a month.. (bought the tank used out of the paper BEFORE seeing this site, heh)

tankmates: 13" green wolf eel, 3.5-4" huma. the puffer is 4.5-5". just lost an undulated the other night for what i believe to be a different reason:
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=246582

tank life: although we've had it for.. 3 weeks now? maybe 4.. previous owner had it for 2 years, puffer for i think around 8 months if memory serves.

pH: LOW, but slowly raising... when i got the tank, it was an astonishing 7.4!! i've got it up to 7.8 now over the course of 2 weeks.

amonia: 0

diet: used to be twice a day he'd scarf down freeze dried krill. was getting ready to 'force' him on some crunchy fresh shimp from the grocery store.. but he hasn't eaten for 3 days now, so i'm not trying to change his diet atm.

tank change: due for a 25% change on the 1st. i'm trying to get this @#$ RO/DI unit to stop leaking and produce water or i'd do it now. i might just go buy some water tomorrow and do it.

need anymore info? advice is appreciated!

we've read:
1) freshwater dip
2) copper (this tank has had copper in it before, so it's already 'tainted' about a year ago)
3) cleaner shrimp (obviously not w/ step 2.. even though Cu is non detect as of now, not even sure if a shrimp would make it in there?)
4) garlic

thx!

[SamsonNY]

Hey Whodah,

I'll let the resident experts figure out what the problem is and hopefully come up with a solution that saves the little guy.

My first "unprofessional" opinion is the drop in Ph causing an acidic environment stressing on his protective coat and causing it to peal.

Good luck.

[capt. insano]

looks to me to be Ich. All of those fish in a tank that small is definately a contributing stressor, but you you know that, so I wont harp.

First suggestion, step up the water changes. If you can, I would change 10% of the water every other day for 5 total water changes. Use a lot of buffer during these water changes to help get that pH up. Make the new water slightly lower (1.18) in specific gravity.

If that fails to help, you check into some of the softer copper medications.

[billsreef]

Definately looks like Ich with a secondary bacterial infection. The secondary infection should clear on it's own once the ich as been cured. The best methods to cure ich are copper and Hyposalinity. If you go with copper, I find Cupramine from Sea Chem is the best. Overall my preffered treatment is hyposalinity. In either case you will need to isolate the shrimp in seperate tank.

[whodah]

i took another pic this morning trying to capture what i see. i think this one came out the best.

the white dots aren't like.. latched on to him. they kinda float on his body.

i always thought ick was attached TO the fish? i've only seen it once on a fish at a friends house, and it was WAY obvious it was ick. it was mega white, and in big areas. like the starts on my puffer that are SUPOSED to be there, heh!

at any rate, another shot trying to illustrate the 'floatiness' of the white stuff:


full res shot at:
http://whodah.com/modules.php?full=1...view_photo.php

is this floatiness stuff the secondary bacterial infection you speak of? or is this ick?

i read the article you provided billsreef on ick, but i didn't see anything about floating. it mentions that ick latches on then goes under the skin.

i'm totally not disagreeing w/ you. because other then the fact it 'floats', i totally think it's ick too! but interested to what you have to say w/ this knowledge?

i just read up on hyposalinity, and after seeing what you think about this, will post a gameplan and see what you all think!

thx guys!

[whodah]

oh, i might add. and i'm sure to nobody's surprise: this is day 4 where he has not eaten.

[M.Dandaneau]

What are your nitrate levels?
From the photo, the eyes appear somewhat cloudy as well, making me think he probably has an excessive slime build up, and that some of the spots may be aquarium detritus sticking to this slime.
My suggestion would be a hospital tank with a non-copper ick treatment and Marycin as an antibiotic (Eurythromycin....a broad spectrum gram positive ) and see about reducing nitrates in the main tank.

[whodah]

nitrates: man, i forget... as of 1.5 weeks ago, i took water in for testing and everything was normal according to LFS.

but i dont have the scale of 'nitrates' memorized. i will do it myself tonight and let you know.

[whodah]

cleaner shrimp: i currently do not have one. would such a beast help out in preventitive maintenance on this?

i'm not suggesting poping one in there and hoping he cures puff, but in general would a shrimp help for the future?

i was concerned that puff, the huma trigger, or the eel woudl eat him the second i dropped one in. but the wife read that eel's actually like cleaner shrimp as 'mates', not as dinner. i saw a pic of a shrimp cleaning out a porquipine puffer... what do you think, could i pop a cleaner shrimp in there and expect him to not become a snack?

[ATJ]

It certainly looks like "Ich" to me. The spots from "Ich" look raised on the surface of the fish (like yours). The clincher for "Ich" is if the spots are visible for 2-7days. The trophonts attach to the skin, gills and eyes for 3 to 7 days. They may not be visible for the first day but as they grow they become obvious. If the spots appear and disappear in less than a day, it is not "Ich". If the spots stay on the fish for more than 7 days, it is unlikely to be "Ich", unless the water temperature is low (22°C or less).

Cloudy eyes are also a sign of "Ich" as the parasites can attach to the eyes, too.

Loss of appetite is a common sign of "Ich".

Stress does not cause "Ich" infections - the presence of the parasite (Cryptocaryon irritans) is what causes it. Put the parasites into a tank with a healthy fish that has never been exposed to "Ich" and the fish will become infected. Stressed fish in a tank without the parasite will never become infected.

A specific gravity of 1.018 is complete ineffective for the treatment of "Ich". Tomonts can continue to divide and produce tomites right down to around 1.011. (I say around 1.011 because specifc gravity is somewhat inprecise and it is a salinity of 16 ppt or below that is effective.)

Cleaner shrimp and cleaner wrasse are generally ineffective for the treatment of "Ich". While I have not seen any studies on the diet of cleaner shrimp, it is very unlikely that C. irritans trophonts form part of the diet. C. irritans trophonts are not the part of the diet of cleaner wrasse. Because of the way the parasites imbed into the skin, eyes and gills of the fish they are basically unavailable to the shrimp and wrasse.

The only proven (practical) treatments for "Ich" are copper and hyposalinity. (Note these are alternate treatments and should not be combined.) Neither can be performed in the presence of invertebrates (which was why Bill was suggesting moving the shrimp to a separate tank). Copper cannot be used in the presence of calcium carbonate so if you have any live rock, coral sand, shell grit, etc. in the tank copper is not an option.

[whodah]

ok, cool.

so, from your opinions and from reading and reading and reading, here's the game plan!

1) although i've got an agressive FOWLR tank, no invertebrates, i'm not going to medicate the main tank.

2) i'll setup my small 25-30G tank using 50% water from the main tank and 50% RO/DI water w/ pH buffer. it will have a brand spakin new emperor 400 filter in it that happens to be sitting on my shelf. i will pick up a small heater for it and put it in a room that gets sunlight for lighting. no LR, no sand, and i'll add a couple of pieces of cleaned PVC pipe in there for him to hide out in if he so desires. i'll monitor the salinity and drop it down to 1.020 and continue dropping it w/ pH buffered RO/DI water changes according to the schedule available at http://www.petsforum.com/personal/tr...osalinity.html which states:
Then, after 12 hours:
((1.020*4)+1.000)/5 = 1.016 approx.
After 24 hours:
((1.016*4)+1.000)/5 = 1.013 approx.
After the 4th change:
((1.013*4)+1.000)/5 = 1.010 approx.

3) as per the missing water in the main tank due to step 2, i will replenish it w/ normal salinity saltwater, efectivly doing a 15G or so water change. every other day i will do a 10G water change of teh main tank for 4 more times.

4) follow the guidlines at above site in teh medic tank by:
Closely monitor the pH and specific gravity
Do regular water changes with low salinity water
Keep the salinity (specific gravity) at 12-14ppt (1.009 @ 27°C) for 4-6 weeks, or at least 4 weeks after the last disappearance of the "Ich".
Raise the salinity to normal over a 3-7 day period.
Leave an untreated display tank fishless for at least 30 days.

how's it look? i *could* do a 'Hyposalinity Treatment' to the entire tank and skip the medic tank as it is fish only w/ 'live' rock. or even take out the LR and put IT in the medic tank and treat the main tank...

the only other thing: the 'Hyposalinity Treatment' article says not to treat w/ copper and 'Hyposalinity Treatment' at the same time. what about using a product such as 'Ridich' or something designed to get rid of ick that is not copper based at the same time as the 'Hyposalinity Treatment'?

man, u guyz rock. thx for the help.

[M.Dandaneau]

The best results I've had in treating ick in a hospital tank, with the least amount of work, have been with a product called "Quick Cure" that's a copper and formalin solution, which I've been using in excess of 15 years.
It's also the method where I've had the lowest mortality rates.
My major concern here would be in cases where repeated treatment is necessary for particularly delicate species, such as batfish and juvenile cowfish/boxfish and burrfish, as formalin is a known carcinogen, thus the odds of a malignancy at a later time is more likely.
At any rate, best of luck with your S&S......basically, most of the genus Arothron are often lumped together and referred to as "dogfaced puffers", and most are fairly resiliant and withstand treatment well, keeping in mind that you have to use caution in the tank transferral so the fish isn't able to inflate with air, which can prove fatal.

[capt. insano]

Whodah,

Sorry for the contradicting advice offered here, but that is what usually happens in an open discussion board. I was just letting you know what has worked for me. I had a really bad outbreak of Ick a couple of years ago, and FWIW, the only thing that eventually worked was a complete treatment cycle with Cupramine.

ATJ, in a healthy tank (where parameters are good), a fish has a better chance of fending off infection when its immune system is not lowered or affected by environmental stressors (such as elevated ammonia, nitrites, stray voltage, etc) I do not agree with you that if one were to place Cryptocaryon into a healthy tank, where the fish had never had ich, they would all contract the illness. If the tank were truly healthy and the fish were healthy, the fish would stand a good chance of fending the infection off by themselves with their healthy immune system.

I have read that the cycle of Cryptocaryon is severely slowed when specific gravity is lowered (even at 1.18). While the fish can handle a gradual change in salinity, the reproduction of the Cryptocaryon is slowed, allowing for the fish to more easily fend off the disease. Just my 2 cents

[whodah]

M.Dandaneau: copper, gotcha.. and that makes sence about grouping S&S as a dogface. i always picture dog face w/ more of.. well, a face like a dog! kinda like w/ a snout. but i can see what you mean and why S&S woudl be grouped w/ them.

capt. insano: another vote for copper... gotcha.

M.Dandaneau: how long did you have to keep your fish in the medic tank w/ copper treatment?

capt. insano: sounds like you treated your entire tank rather than using a medic tank. how long did this last/take?

the reason i ask: keeping puff in a small tank for 4-6 weeks is nerve wrecking to me... espeically since 55G is too small!

as mentioned before, this tank is already 'tainted' w/ copper. previous owner used 'coppersafe' in it. which, i might add, i do have some left at home. it's an acrylic tank, so i figured i could ditch the sand/rock/filters and clean out the tank if i ever watned anythign what copper would kill.

[ATJ]

Who Duh,

You need to start with your hospital tank at normal salinity (35 ppt/ SG 1.025-1.028) or at least consistant with your main tank. Move the fish across and once settled start lowering the salinity/specific gravity over 2-3 days.

Other than that, your plan is sound.

Hyposalinity alone is sufficient for the treatment of "Ich" and you do not need to combine it with other methods. "Rid Ich" and other non-copper based medications are very unreliable and it is very likely they do nothing at all.

[ATJ]

Originally posted by capt. insano

ATJ, in a healthy tank (where parameters are good), a fish has a better chance of fending off infection when its immune system is not lowered or affected by environmental stressors (such as elevated ammonia, nitrites, stray voltage, etc)

I very much agree that they have a better chance of fighting off the infection, but stress plays little or no part in them becoming infected in the first place. Unless an organism has an innate immunity, an immune response is dependent on exposure to antigen and without prior exposure there can be no immune response. The organism must first become infected and only then can they develop an immunity.

While a healthy fish in a healthy tank with little or no stress will have a better chance of fighting off infection ("Ich" or anything else), it does not guarantee that the fish will be able to fight off the infection before the infection kills the fish. This is particularly true of "Ich" which attacks the gills and the body epithelium directly stressing the fish. Fish that die from "Ich" normally asphyxiate due to the damage to their gills.

Lowering stress and improving water conditions is desirable but is not a cure.

I do not agree with you that if one were to place Cryptocaryon into a healthy tank, where the fish had never had ich, they would all contract the illness. If the tank were truly healthy and the fish were healthy, the fish would stand a good chance of fending the infection off by themselves with their healthy immune system.

Then we'll have to agree to disagree. I have a large number of references to studies where healthy fish were exposed to "Ich" theronts and all got infected. The levels of exposure and health of the fish will make a difference as to whether the fish survive the exposure, but not one study indicates that stress has any impact on initial infection.

I have read that the cycle of Cryptocaryon is severely slowed when specific gravity is lowered (even at 1.18). While the fish can handle a gradual change in salinity, the reproduction of the Cryptocaryon is slowed, allowing for the fish to more easily fend off the disease. Just my 2 cents

Cheung et al. (1979) found that salinity as low as 7 ppt has no effect on trophonts and they were still able to encyst, however, a salinity of 16 ppt and below affected tomont division and no tomites excysted when the salinity was below 16 ppt.

Colorni (1985) found that tomonts developed normally at salinities of 20 ppt and above. Salinities of 15 ppt and below resulted in no survival of tomonts. Note that exposure of 3 hours or less of a salinity of 10 ppt or below was sufficient to kill tomonts but at 15 ppt, at least 24 hours exposure was required.

Converting from salinity to specific gravity is dependent on the standard used for measuring specific gravity (which is the ratio of the sample at one temperature to the ratio of pure water at another temperature). If we assume the standard uses id d20/20 (sample at 20°C to pure water at 20°C) the conversions are as follows:

40 ppt: 1.030
35 ppt: 1.027 (normal salinity)
30 ppt: 1.023
20 ppt: 1.015
16 ppt: 1.012
15 ppt: 1.011
14 ppt: 1.011
12 ppt: 1.009
10 ppt: 1.008

So, as it has been demonstrated that a salinity of 20 ppt has no effect on the reproduction of "Ich", a specific gravity of 1.015 (d20/20) will have no effect and 1.018 will make no difference at all.

It is also worth noting that the change in salinity was not found to affect the speed of reproduction, only the success of it. Temperature affects the speed, but not salinity.

Cheung P.J., Nigrelli R.F. and Ruggieri G.D. 1979. Studies on cryptocaryoniasis in marine fish: effect of temperature and salinity on reproductive cycle of Cryptocaryon irritans Brown, 1951. J. Fish Dis..2:93-97

Colorni A. 1985. Aspects of the biology of Cryptocaryon irritans, and hyposalinity as a control measure in cultured gilt-head sea bream Sparus aurata. Dis. Aquat. Org..1:19-22.

[ATJ]

Who Dah,

If you are going to consider treating with copper, I recommend you research copper treatment well. It is difficult to maintain the required levels of copper and you must monitor the water at least twice daily making the necessary adjustments. Treatment levels of copper have been shown to impact nitrification and so can result in high concentrations of ammonia and nitrite, adding further to the problems. You cannot have any calcareous material in the tank as this absorbs copper from the water making maintaining the levels more difficult but the absorbed copper can also be dumped back into the water with a drop in pH.

Hyposalinity is much safer and easier. It has been proven to be effective for the treatment of "Ich".

[capt. insano]

ATJ,

Point well taken...thanks for the quid pro quo!

As you sound much more knowledgeable and versed on the subject, I humbly concede.

As long as our banter benefits Whodahs fish

[ATJ]

Originally posted by capt. insano
As long as our banter benefits Whodahs fish

It should benefit everyone that reads it.

Unfortunately, there is a lot of misinformation in this hobby - and the topic of "Ich" has more than it's fair share. Open discussions such as this allow people to share research information so that all can have a better understanding of the problem and potential solutions.

[TerryB]

I have to say that I agree with everything that ATJ said and I also have a collection of reports from scientific journals. Keep up the good work ATJ. I am happy that you are around to type such lenghtly posts out and save me a lot of effort! LOL
Terry B

[whodah]

an update: i've almost got my salinity down to 1.009. i think tonight's water change may do it, if not tomorrow's for sure.

the eel and trigger don't seem to mind too much if at all. still eating healthy.

the puffer's condition *looks* better... but his attitude is not. he's spending more time then ever resting on the sand, rock, or letting a water filter suck him in to hold him in place. he used to swim all the time and rest very little, now it's the opposite.

he's still using the bathroom

as far as eating, last night we 'force' fed him and he nibbled on a bit of shrimp (a very little piece). i mean, like 1/5th of what he would normally eat in one setting (was feeding him twice a day). today he ate about the same, again by force.

his eyes are still clowdy. his fins white spots appear to be going away.

his slime coat is not as bad, but still bad... it's so tempting to brush his white speckled slime coat away to clean him!

i wouldn't say he has 'changed colors' but some of his brown spots are much more aparent now. i'll try to take similar pics tonight. either his white is getting lighter or dark darker. it's been so gradual that i cannot tell which it is, but i'll compare shots tonight too.

before dropping the salinity, we treated them w/ 'stop parasites' by chem marine (non-copper parasite/ich treament w/ peppers as one of it's main ingrediants!). this really did seem to make some of it get off his body. (smelled like hot sause!)

now that the salinity is almost at 1.009, we were reading on and considering rxp by kent.

anyone have thoughts on this? i.e. rxp concurrent w/ hyposalinity?

also, whatcha think? think he'll make it? man, i hope so...