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#127
11/03/2006, 03:07 PM
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A little off topic, but somthing that has been in the back of my mind since I started reading this. But does anyone know the basis of why such a strict ban on coral and most other invertabrates has been put in place, but the flow of marine fish in and out of the Islands is allowed to flow so freely?
If we could work off of what started the problem with the people in power, we may have a chance to better the law for the marine eosystem around the Islands, and make them a more welcoming place to the marine reef enthusiust. Just my $0.02
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#128
11/03/2006, 08:01 PM
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there is a LONG list of fish that Cannot enter Hawaii. If AG finds one of these fish in the box while checking they will confiscate it. fish do not flow as freely as you think.
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"we are not here, we are the imagionations of ourselves" |
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#129
11/03/2006, 08:10 PM
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Bravo? nonsense...
So much to offer... but So conceited...
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You are an experienced and respected aquarist Charles, but I am frankly amazed at your condescending and frankly threatening attitude toward the intelligent people in this thread. Did you take the time to read all the posts in this thread, as I took the time to purchase and read your book? I have already had people call me discouraged by your post, hence my anger. Your response was a little off the cuff and premature, Charles. I would ask you to apologize to the people of this thread, but I now feel that may be below you. Are you a friend or foe, JCD? or just an antagonist? To the good people of our club, I am willing to set up our own website for our club, just say the word. Still Respectfully, Don Williams |
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#130
11/03/2006, 09:47 PM
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Biology is the only science in which multiplication means the same thing as division. |
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#131
11/03/2006, 09:51 PM
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Let's all take a deep breath. I took Charles' message to be more of a precaution regarding the laws and the possible penalties involved. As such, it's a good reminder to all of us. I agree that as reef aquarists, we need to be aware of our environment and need to make sure that we don't cause damage to our reefs by our activities and make sure we prevent nonnative species from being established in our waters. Having said that, it's hard to imagine how our hobby could do so with the limited numbers we have and the type of organisms that we hope to keep (for instance, it's not like our colonies of palythoas are going to break out of our aquariums and sneak into the wild unlike snakes, iguanas, sugar gliders, etc. etc.)
As many of us have said before, the goal here is to promote reefkeeping in Hawaii and the ways to have a tank here. We have already discussed the possibility of captive culturing of live rock and I think this is very doable and would be highly sustainable. By promoting our hobby in this fashion, we make it easier for us in the future to get the laws changed regarding the importation of certain organisms and the collection of other organisms here in Hawaii that are currently prohibited. We could also work on captive propagation of the native palys and zoos that we have now to reduce the burden of wild-caught specimens. The public still believes that all corals grow at the pace of glaciers whereas the rapid growth of Acropora sp. has been well documented in RC and in the scientific literature (non-native to Hawaii though  )I would like to work within the boundaires of Reef Central if possible but if others wish to move this forum to a private website, I'd be OK with either. My 2 cents (my 2 grains of oolitic sand) Spleen |
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#132
11/03/2006, 09:52 PM
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#134
11/03/2006, 10:21 PM
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Yes, the club is still happening. The best thing for those of us who respect the law, and have a love for coral and fish in Hawaii is to stick together in my opinion. I have never found a better "slice" of society than those who can appreciate and care for coral. As far as laws and regulations, don't expect those to change for a long time, if ever, thats just the way it works.
Don |
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#136
11/03/2006, 11:17 PM
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Wow, that was a pretty intense post nodea717. Don't forget Charles could be one of our best allies in this whole thing. I don't think attacking him will help us get to where we want to be any faster. I don't think he said anything out of line.
I do believe people were referring to bringing in coral at the beginning of this thread. I also must comment on the notion of coral crawling out of our tanks to the ocean. this may be true but people do stupid things everyday. that is why I see Christmas island flame angels in Waianae boat harbor, and lemon peel angels at the Oceanic Institute pier. I highly doubt they crawled there on their own. Please people. we are not here to knock each other down. he was only saying what I believe RGBmatt, Zemeron and many others have also been saying. Last edited by pactrop; 11/04/2006 at 12:16 AM. |
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#137
11/04/2006, 12:33 AM
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When I was in Oahu for a short visit I actually got a chance to visit one of the collector's holding tanks and I did not see anything illegal such as live rocks, corals, etc. All his fish was well cared for and I wished all collectors around the world would do the same.
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#138
11/04/2006, 02:18 AM
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I also agree with pactrop. JCD would help immensely in our endeavors to change anything. I dont think he was attacking anyone specifically. But he did make valid points. If there is any mention of bringing in corals or illegal fish/rock etc, RC may be forced to reveal specific names. Even the mention of having a singe coral (since ALL coral is illegal here)
I am all for a reef club/forum, and would love to talk story with everyone! We just have to be careful in doing it. hopefully the laws change eventually, because this would be a perfect place to have a reef tank and even culture live corals for re-sale to help the hobby. You cannot beat natural sunlight! Hope to see you all at the get together - when is it by the way?
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"we are not here, we are the imagionations of ourselves" |
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#139
11/04/2006, 03:16 AM
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 )We will definitely pull ahead better if we work together rather than work against each other. Just out of curiosity, how does a Christmas Island flame angel differ from a Hawaiian flame angel? Spleen |
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#140
11/04/2006, 03:52 AM
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Great question.
Here is a thread about it http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...hreadid=883278 Also, Flame angels arent usually found in 1 foot of water at boat harbors. That is just a really easy place to drop them in the ocean. |
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#142
11/04/2006, 05:57 AM
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Re: Bravo? nonsense...
Has it come to this already? Normally I do not like to rant, but this is something I feel strongly about.
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Charles has pointed out something that is plainly obvious: people on this thread have openly admitted to breaking state and federal laws. I do not need to quote them; their posts stick out like sore thumbs in the first two pages of this thread and looking them up is easy. This is not a trivial matter; people have served jail time in Hawaii for this and there are people on this island who would be very happy to see you punished for it. Discussing this sort of thing here, or trying to swap non-native coral frags at club meetings (as one poster did indeed suggest) is a bad idea for their own sake. While that may sound harsh, it's the plain truth and there's no sense sugar-coating it. Most of us understand this and are willing to work with the system instead of against it, but apparently not everyone does. This can only serve to reinforce the negative opinions that many people have of aquariums. Quote:
Will a small number of aquarium hobbyists taking small amounts of live rock and coral fragments for their own personal use really damage the environment? Of course not, but the powers that be will not recognize that unless it can be demonstrated by people like us. If we make our voices heard, the regulations can reflect our interests as well, although it may not happen overnight. As it stands, collecting corals and live rock can be done legally with the proper permits. As a matter of fact, I have a permit that allows me to collect live rock for research purposes (I work at UH), although obviously I can't use it in my aquarium. Scientists here routinely collect corals and live rock, which they are allowed to do because the state feels their activities are beneficial and outweigh the potential cost. I believe it is possible to demonstrate that our hobby is an asset to our state rather than a burden. Regarding invertebrates, many can reproduce asexually and there may be more risk of them becoming established than with fish. IMO enjoying introduced species in aquaria is something that should only be permitted if there are careful provisions to prevent their escape. Here is a good article about how deep reef habitats in Hawaii are being overgrown by an introduced soft coral. This is something that I have seen personally, and it breaks my heart. It is part of my job at UH to review video records from our submersibles, including some of the dives mentioned in the article. Seeing once-thriving forests of black coral trees lifeless and engulfed by snowflake coral is an awesome sight; one which we should avoid repeating at all costs. Last edited by RGBMatt; 11/04/2006 at 06:17 AM. |
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#143
11/04/2006, 06:14 AM
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Learning to catch fish is another matter, however! I remember when I first started, and I was awful at it - all I could catch were puffers and scorpion fish. The only solution is lots of practice and a willingness to learn from your mistakes. As a beginner, you might find some unique specimens stuck in tidepools, which will usually be easy to catch. |
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#144
11/04/2006, 06:16 AM
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I use to dive Kaneohe Bay a lot 8 years or more ago. We'd encounter Lemon Peel Angels every now and then. They were thought to be "released" fish. But, If you know where to look, you could find Potters and Flames in shallow waters (<10ft). But that was 8 years ago. I have no idea how collecting pressures have effected the reefs since.
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Biology is the only science in which multiplication means the same thing as division. |
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#145
11/04/2006, 06:26 AM
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I know a spot in Kaneohe Bay where you can see flame angels - a pair of Christmas Island flames lives on the wall to the left of the boat ramp at Heeia. There's another one on the right side of Keehi Lagoon boat ramp.
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#147
11/04/2006, 11:47 AM
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At first I was wondering whats the big deal in keeping imported corals in Hawaii compared to the Mainland until I went to Hawaii and swam in the ocean. I forgot, the water is warmer there. All it takes is a frag of coral from you tank to hit the ocean and then it could become and invasive coral devestating native species.
For example, here in California someone was cleaning out his tank and dumped it in Huntington Harbor and thought nothing of it. A few years later his small piece of caulerpa which he dumped as well florished in the Harbor choking out marine life and native plants species. It took the City and State millions of dollars and countless years to remove this caulerpa. Now this caulerpa is banned in California |
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#148
11/05/2006, 03:33 AM
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Matt - snowflake coral is thought to have been introduced by ship ballast water or encrustations on ships coming in? At least that's my recollection ...
I remember when I first tried collecting my own fish - I was randomly swishing dipnets in tidepools to catch baby mamo and manini. Mostly released because I was just having fun (this is small kid time). I can't say that I've improved all that much since then ... good thing that I don't collect my own fish. Spleen |
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#150
11/10/2006, 09:59 PM
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Hey guys, I sent everyone a PM with date, time and directions to the BBQ... If I missed someone that would like to attend please send me a PM.
Also, please respond with a PM if you plan on attending so I can plan appropriatley. So far I have six that have acknowledged that they are coming. See you there! Don |
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