bare-bottom, or live sand????

[StephenD]

i'm seting up a 65 gallon reef and i've heard lots of good things about doing a tank bare bottomed, but i'm not so sure, it doesn't sound like it's very aestheticly pleasing. but i have also had a few freinds who have lost hundreds of dollars in fish and coral when their sand released a ton of phosphates. so, help me out, maybe give some ideas, anything would be nice really.

[graveyardworm]

This is an age old debate. I have no idea what you are asking in your poll. Your gonna get answers from both sides as to which is better, and both have there own advantages and disadvantages. I prefer to have a DSB, but in order for it to work properly it needs to be maintained, it needs to have a large enough surface area, and the infauna need to be replenished periodically to keep the diversity as high as possible.

Before you decide DSB or bare bottom you need to take into consideration how you want to stock the tank. If you want to have lots of fish and keep mostly soft coral then a DSB might be more appropriate. If you want to keep mostly SPS then you may want to look more closely at going barebottom.

[Jens Kallmeyer]

HI

BB is defintely a very clean solution, no doubt about that. But it looks so damn ugly!


Jens

[crrichey]

I'll put it this way, it's always easier to add sand than to remove it.

[RichConley]

Sand beds dont "release phosphate"

What happens, is you're producing more thna it can handle, and it just keeps building up, until it stops absorbing any, and then it builds up and you have too much.

It happening is a product of poor husbandry.


THey both work fine. Tons of flow and a big skimmer, and you'll do great,

[reefnewbie54321]

SPS Reef- SPS require extremly low nutrients and rely on heavy skimming and lots of flow. Bare Bottom provides a way to create massive amounts of flow without sand storms and also keeps detrius in constant motion wich will imrpove a skimmers performance greatly. If I were setting up a SPS reef I would definitly go BB. If you dont like the look there have been a few people who have built some pretty cool faux sandbeds.

Soft/LPS- These corals can not handle to much flow and in a bare bottom tank detrius would settle. They also require alot of food and a DSB produces food like this. These tanks also do not realy on heavy skimming as much as SPS. If I were setting uo an LPS/softie tank I would go DSB.

Right now I am setting up a Soft/LPS tank w/ DSB and plan to keep it up for 4 years. In the mean time save for a huge skimmer, Tunze Streams, Calcium Reactor, and upgrade 2 better lighting. Then after 4 years when DSB is in need of replacing I will rip it out and go BB SPS.

[AngeloM3]

LS

doesnt look like a "reef tank" if its BB!!!

[R33f3r]

I run a black starboard bare bottom although it's covered in coralline now. No algae, no cyano, no dinos, no blasting the lr every week, no problems.

[Chihuahua6]

Please do a search here on RC, other websites and Google. This same question comes up over and over. I don't even answer anymore. The answers are out there. You need to do a ton of reading to understand how a DSB works and how to maintain it before you decide if it's the way you want to go.

[AngeloM3]

Originally posted by Chihuahua6
Please do a search here on RC, other websites and Google. This same question comes up over and over. I don't even answer anymore. The answers are out there. You need to do a ton of reading to understand how a DSB works and how to maintain it before you decide if it's the way you want to go.

I concur! Also to many people worry about all these "possible" problems. You should do your research, start up a tank and deal with the problems as they come.

I know a guy that has had his reef tank (softies, LPS, SPS, overstocked in fish) going for 7yrs. He has NEVER used RO/DI water for water changes. He does a water change MONTHLY. He OVER FEEDS. He has never had any massive problems.

I think people read about other peoples problems and right away think if they dont do "something" it will happen to them.

I did it when I first got into the hobby... I was paranoid about all these negative things happening, couple years later I have not had any really negative things happen.

Dont stress, do your research and deal with problems when they come up.... other than that, relax and enjoy your tank!

[crrichey]

Originally posted by Chihuahua6
Please do a search here on RC, other websites and Google. This same question comes up over and over. I don't even answer anymore. The answers are out there. You need to do a ton of reading to understand how a DSB works and how to maintain it before you decide if it's the way you want to go.

Why would you even post if you don't plan on adding anything to the thread? This is the reason your not allowed to post "tagging along" or anything like that.

Like I stated earlier, its easier to add sand than to remove it. You could always connect a DSB bucket to it if you want the nitrate reduction benefits of sand.

[Dwayne]

Please keep this thread on track (or at least one that is appropriate).

This thread, because of the possible heated and opinionated responses, is risky at best. I'm willing to give it a chance to receive professional and positive responses. The first signs of flaming or antagonizing and it's closed.

Thanks for understanding.

Dwayne

[antonsemrad]

I don't like the look of bb. IMO a dsb in the display tank dosn't look good either. Ssb's require regular cleaning. So hear is an idea. Cover the hole bottom with living rock. Fast growing monti cap comes to mind. Not sure if it would work. Light would have to be sufficient (t5's mabe). Pockets of detrites will have to be avoided. You would need alot of calcium. This would also demand Patience. Quarantine also would prevent any moni eating flatworms.

So what do you guys think?

[Kent E]

I have had both. I won't go back to the same nutrient laden system I had before.

BUT, I don't think BB is the perfect solution either. I believe the best situation would be to have a sand bottom that turned over from the current just as it does in the ocean and beach. The problem is that is creates murky water sometimes and it's more or less impossible to get the wave action that turns the sand over right.


Just my opinion.

[Chihuahua6]

Originally posted by ChinChek787
Why would you even post if you don't plan on adding anything to the thread? This is the reason your not allowed to post "tagging along" or anything like that.

Like I stated earlier, its easier to add sand than to remove it. You could always connect a DSB bucket to it if you want the nitrate reduction benefits of sand.

The post actually contained very good advice. You need to do quite a bit of reading on DSBs and how they work before you can determine if this is the way you want to go. Doing ones own research will explain more than just a quick answer and this subject does not have a quick answer. My post explained to him how he can educate himself. That's great advice in my opinion.

[RichConley]

Originally posted by Kent E
I have had both. I won't go back to the same nutrient laden system I had before.

BUT, I don't think BB is the perfect solution either. I believe the best situation would be to have a sand bottom that turned over from the current just as it does in the ocean and beach. The problem is that is creates murky water sometimes and it's more or less impossible to get the wave action that turns the sand over right.


Just my opinion.

I've been running a DSB for a long time, and its definitely not a nutrient laden mess like you say.


The problem is, usually when people go DSB->BB, they add more flow, and a bigger skimmer. In most of those situations, the more flow and bigger skimmer would have solved the problem in the first place.


And for those of you who are all saying "you can't have a lot of flow in a DSB" I have a 58 gallon with DSB. I have a tunze 6060, 2x SEIO 820s, a maximod, and my return. Thats over 5000gph, roughly 80-90x turnover.

[AQUA DAVE]

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...light=progress

This is a good thread to read about a Deep Sand Bed and how to properly do it. Also you might think about reading Dr. Rons discussion on DSB's. As long as you do it right and plan accordingly, and listen to the real experts, you will be fine with a DSB. I personally know a guy who has won tank of the month on here with an SPS dominated tank. He ran a DSB and still does with great success. He has the most beautiful SPS tank i have seen. He also has about 130 times turnover in a 180g tank and no sand storms. He also doesn't use in tank power heads that can fall and create sand storms. He uses a closed loop with Penducters. Anyway, lets hear the barrage of comments. It is always interesting. Oh, and he uses an oversized skimmer w/ carbon and phosban reactors. Also recharges his sand with free cups from fellow reefers. He also runs about a 100 gallon refugium with lots of cheato and a geo calcium reactor. Again read Dr. Shimmeks comments on DSB.

[luckybaker4]

Originally posted by RichConley

The problem is, usually when people go DSB->BB, they add more flow, and a bigger skimmer. In most of those situations, the more flow and bigger skimmer would have solved the problem in the first place.
[/B]

This is exactly what my thoughts about it are. The first thing people do when they go BB Is buy a bigger skimmer and more flow.

Why couldn't they do this when they had a DSB?

I have personally done both, and I am really learning the hard way that the BB aproach is HARD work. You really have to invest and there is no room for error. For instance, I did not take the time to build a rock rack for the first year that I had the tank set up. After battling nitrates and not being able to get them below ~20, I decided to remove all the rock and put it on a rock. What I found was disgusting. I found a probably 3" in diameter pile of detrius that I had no idea was there.

I guess the message I am trying to get across, is that BB is a lot of hard work, and I am not really sure that I have seen the rewards for all the work and money that I have put into it. I have seen a lot of threads lately where people have had "too sterile" systems and had to start feeding more. Its almost like you are walking a really fine line when you are running BB.

In the end, my next tank will be DSB with an oversized skimmer and lots of flow.

[demonboy279]

i havent had a bb but i wouldnt have one either. i have had a dsb from the start and i like it. a barebottom tank is nothing near natural. in the ocean the bottom is sand not glass. and the way i go ( i think most people do the same) is try to copy the ocean. so i went with a dsb and havent had a problem out of it. you just have to have a cleanup crew to keep it clean and plenty of fauna to keep the sand bed stirred bit by bit.


overall a dsb looks better, does more for the tank, is natural, and some critters/livestock cant live without the sand.


its your choice and i agree with what has been said you should definitely do some research. look at this thread. its called the introduction to substrate choices. it talks about a shallow sand bed, deep sand bed. and barebottom. it compares them to each other and talks about them each in detail. its definitely a worth while read and will most likely make your decision easier to make.

[reefdood]

I gotta have my sand. Actually though I prefer a 1" bed of aragonite mixed with LS. After a while the aragonite particles will dominate over the sugar sized LS and will cover the top well enough to be turned over by current and not cause a sandstorm. At least that's how my 30 acted.

[crrichey]

I wonder if cc would work the best in a high flow situation. You will find cc on areas of the reef with extremely high flow because that is the only substrate that will stay in place.

[graveyardworm]

I think regardless of the situation a CC sand bed would still trap lots of detritus, and would not have denitrifying ability of a sugarfine DSB. So if the goal is a low nutrient environment you would probably have problems.

[Aquaticman74]

I love the clean look of a BB tank. I run all my tanks BB. I have no issues running my aggressive tank, zoo/softy tank, or my LPS tank BB. If detritus settles I can get it out before it breaks down, it's up to me how clean I want the system to be. It's a little more work, but well worth it IMO.

Both ways can work or fail... It's up to you what the end result will be. If you aren't willing to put the effort into husbandry, you will fail no matter what.

This board is full of knowledge and there's some really great people willing to help out.

Here's 3 of my favorite tank threads. One user is no longer active, but the thread is full of info, just missing the photo's. This shows three different approaches to this hobby. Enjoy!

Paul B

Melev

Bomber

Pics of Bomber's tank

[Gary Majchrzak]

Originally posted by RichConley
Sand beds dont "release phosphate"

What happens, is you're producing more thna it can handle, and it just keeps building up, until it stops absorbing any, and then it builds up and you have too much.

It happening is a product of poor husbandry.


THey both work fine. Tons of flow and a big skimmer, and you'll do great,

Rich- did you read this thread?


http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...highlight=burp

[RichConley]

Yes Gary, I have.


Like I Said, if you maintain your sandbed properly, its fine. If you let it become a festering cesspool, you'll have issues.


They both work fine