huge electric bill help

[Fishbulb2]

Originally posted by Freed
If 100% of their input was turned into heat then they wouldn't be pushing any water would they? It would be a...heater.

No, this is a misconception (although it's been cleared up here in RC a 100X before). Even if the pump produces a lot of water movement, that movement is ultimately converted to heat through friction. Watts and heat are directly correlated so any pump using the same wattage will put out the same heat. In fact, a fully submerged 50 watt pump is exactly equivalent to a 50watt heater, despite being more expensive and not having a thermostat. The only thing you need to consider when regarding pumps heat and efficiency is to determine the amount of water flow you need and then get the pump that will achieve this with the lowest wattage. That is an efficient pump. It has nothing to do with how much energy is eventually converted to heat. Because it all is eventually converted to heat.
FB

[Paul B]

Actually my reef goes to 88 degrees sometimes in the summer. I don't like it going that high but so far I have not had any fatilities.
Paul

[kmax74]

i changed some settings what i did was i have 1 mag 12 running 24 7 i adjusted the halides for 6 hours pcs for ten hours bumped up the chiller to 81 and put the chiller and other mag 12 on a timer with the halides waiting to see results how much can this actually help

[Freed]

Not as much as a time of day meter.

[Spuds725]

Originally posted by Fishbulb2
No, this is a misconception (although it's been cleared up here in RC a 100X before). Even if the pump produces a lot of water movement, that movement is ultimately converted to heat through friction. Watts and heat are directly correlated so any pump using the same wattage will put out the same heat. In fact, a fully submerged 50 watt pump is exactly equivalent to a 50watt heater, despite being more expensive and not having a thermostat. The only thing you need to consider when regarding pumps heat and efficiency is to determine the amount of water flow you need and then get the pump that will achieve this with the lowest wattage. That is an efficient pump. It has nothing to do with how much energy is eventually converted to heat. Because it all is eventually converted to heat.
FB

You can't say "ALL" -- there is no (None, Nada, zip) thermodynamic process that is 100% efficient and therefore all the energy cannot be converted to heat (see entropy)-- plain and simple... it may be proportional but will never be "ALL" -- Physics dictates this--

http://www.physlink.com/Education/As...TOKEN=30004011

The friction can convert some movement to heat, but once again... not 100%--

And if an external pump motor runs warmer then air, it will give off heat--- this heat will not go in the water and even if it somehow did, not 100%...

KMAX-- if you want more immediate results-- get a "kill a watt" meter-- you can check your tank components as well as other things around your home to see what draws alot of power (even when off)... should pay for itself if you start unplugging the standby energy hogs around your house.

http://www.cyberguys.com/templates/s...ProductID=5382

I just bought one off ebay-- about $22 shipped.

[RichConley]

Originally posted by Spuds725
You can't say "ALL" -- there is no (None, Nada, zip) thermodynamic process that is 100% efficient and therefore all the energy cannot be converted to heat (see entropy)-- plain and simple... it may be proportional but will never be "ALL" -- Physics dictates this--

http://www.physlink.com/Education/As...TOKEN=30004011

The friction can convert some movement to heat, but once again... not 100%--

And if an external pump motor runs warmer then air, it will give off heat--- this heat will not go in the water and even if it somehow did, not 100%...

KMAX-- if you want more immediate results-- get a "kill a watt" meter-- you can check your tank components as well as other things around your home to see what draws alot of power (even when off)... should pay for itself if you start unplugging the standby energy hogs around your house.

http://www.cyberguys.com/templates/s...ProductID=5382

I just bought one off ebay-- about $22 shipped.

Spuds, entropy IS HEAT.

Your confusing things, and bringing up externals. Submersibles are what we're talking about. 100% of the energy used by a submersible, or any water cooled pump, is added to the tank as heat.

[Paul B]

You guys are really confusing me now. I know that not all of the power in a motor is converted to heat because some of it is converted to movement. The power in an incandescant light is also not all converted to heat although about 98% of it is, the rest is converted to photons or light.
If you want to know how much it cost you to run your tank, get one of these. My tank cost me about 17 cents an hour just for the lights, if I keep them on 12 hours a day thats $61.00 a month just for lighting.
http://www.bluelineinnovations.com/

[bbehring]

Quick question on my lighting. Would it make sence to MHs on 6 hours and then set my t5s to come on maybe tow to three hours before and after with a 1/2 hour stagger into the MH photoperiod. What I'm getting at is I've been running my T5s for 12 hours straight with my 6 hour MH photoperiod. Wondering if I can cut them off while the MH is on?

[Paul B]

Brent, it depends on what you are keeping. I have my MH lights on for 12 hours and the actinics come on 1 hour before and a little after the MH's

[Spuds725]

Originally posted by RichConley
Spuds, entropy IS HEAT.

Your confusing things, and bringing up externals. Submersibles are what we're talking about. 100% of the energy used by a submersible, or any water cooled pump, is added to the tank as heat.

I will agree I'm confusing things (for everyone), but entropy is not heat-- if it were, then they would say heat--

Simply put, entropy is disorder, and drives thermodynamic processes-- if any spontaneous thermodynamic process occurs, entropy is what drives it-- and since there is no 100% efficient process, 100% of the energy cannot be converted to heat--- if you could, you would be a millionaire.

No way around the pesky physics--

We are kind of getting beyond the scope of this thread and beating a dead horse-- I obviously can't convince you, and you will never convince me-- I was a chemistry major and had alot of physics-- Physical chemistry (specifically Statistical Mechanics) went deep into the thermodynamic laws--

Just quit saying "All" and we won't have a problem... I don't even have a problem if you say "most" as I have not tried measuring this stuff... you just can't say "All" and be making a true statement.

[Freed]

I concur...r

[RichConley]

Originally posted by Spuds725
I will agree I'm confusing things (for everyone), but entropy is not heat-- if it were, then they would say heat--

Simply put, entropy is disorder, and drives thermodynamic processes-- if any spontaneous thermodynamic process occurs, entropy is what drives it-- and since there is no 100% efficient process, 100% of the energy cannot be converted to heat--- if you could, you would be a millionaire.

No way around the pesky physics--

We are kind of getting beyond the scope of this thread and beating a dead horse-- I obviously can't convince you, and you will never convince me-- I was a chemistry major and had alot of physics-- Physical chemistry (specifically Statistical Mechanics) went deep into the thermodynamic laws--

Just quit saying "All" and we won't have a problem... I don't even have a problem if you say "most" as I have not tried measuring this stuff... you just can't say "All" and be making a true statement.

I was an engineering student. I took my fair share of physics. Heat is essentially the lowest form of energy. Converting things to heat isnt an "efficient" process, heat is the byproduct of inneficiency.

If you take a 100w pump, and a 100w heater, and put them in the two identical insulated tanks, the tanks will end up the same temperature.

[Paulairduck]

I just got my bill @ 1200 for 190 dollars a month, thats running a 100 gallon, with 75 gallon frag tank, dual 250's MH over the main, Dual 175 MH over the frag, And a 180 with dual 250's, Halides 6 hrs at a time, opposite lighting schedules. My biggest upgrade that I think saved a lot of power was Reeflo pumps (Snapper) and Galaxy electronic ballast's

If you live in California get the saving's program from edison, they put an electronic device on your AC, when they need to shut it down. I run my AC @ 77 all the time, they only shut me off four times, for short periods of time, in three years.

[Spuds725]

Originally posted by RichConley
I was an engineering student.

That explains it (J/K)--

[Freed]

kmax74, did you call your electric company yet about the time of day meter?

[kmax74]

no not yet edison is like dealing with a bunch of a-- monkeys

[bbehring]

Originally posted by Paul B
Brent, it depends on what you are keeping. I have my MH lights on for 12 hours and the actinics come on 1 hour before and a little after the MH's

Paul, softies, LPS and a Clam. Mixed Reef. I'm thinking about adding an SPS or 2 up high? Well it's 104 out today here in good old Hemet California. Looking for anything do drive down my electric cost. I already have a 4,000 gal koi pond that has 2 sequence 1/4 hp pumps running 24/7. Although my tank is not huge at 55 gal plus sump, all the pumps running 24/7 and the lighting and cooling fans add up.

[kmax74]

BBEHRING What is your monthly kw or electric bill run you

[Icefire]

Originally posted by RichConley


If you take a 100w pump, and a 100w heater, and put them in the two identical insulated tanks, the tanks will end up the same temperature.

Nope, a pump have 45-65% efficacity, so about half go in heat, half in novement.

you can't produce 746W of heat + 746w of movement on a 1hp motor.

[nick18tjetta]

250 DE's pull almost as much power as 2 400 watt SE's

[bbehring]

Originally posted by kmax74
BBEHRING What is your monthly kw or electric bill run you

Kmax74, around $300 on average in the summer and 1/2 that in the winter. I also have a large koi pond that chews up juice. My main concern now is the reef, looking for ways to cut back ever so slightly and massage downward if possible?

[RichConley]

Originally posted by Icefire
Nope, a pump have 45-65% efficacity, so about half go in heat, half in novement.

you can't produce 746W of heat + 746w of movement on a 1hp motor.

Icefire, I would suggest that you read up on simple thermodynamics.

Even a 100% efficient submersible will heat the water. For that matter, shaking a stick in some water will heat it. All of that energy is converted to movement. So you've got X gallons of water being accelerated. That water is slowed down by friction. If this was not the case, the water would continue to accelerate infinitely until your tank exploded.

When the tank reaches equilibrium, IE the water is no longer accelerating, you have equal wattage being put into the tank, and equal wattage being dissipated as heat.

So No, you can't produce 746w of movement and 746w of heat, but you can produce 746w of movement, which gets transformed into 746w of heat through friction. This is VERY SIMPLE CONSERVATION OF ENERGY.

[RichConley]

Originally posted by nick18tjetta
250 DE's pull almost as much power as 2 400 watt SE's

Since when?

A 400w SE XM10K pulls 440w on an M59. it pulls 480 on an HQI.

A 250w XDE 10K pulls 314w on an HQI.

I fail to see how 628w is almost as much as 880(960)w. Its 70(65)%, which considering what these bulbs are labeled at, is pretty much exactly what we'd expect.

[rbursek]

WOW what a thread, I used to work for are local electric utility i SE WI, we ahd time of use rates here in the late 70,s they do not advertize it anymore so I do not know what is up with that. It was for conservation so they did not have to build new power plants which are multi-million dollar deals. As an engineer, if a pump is putting all of it's wattage into heat it is not moving water, if a light bulb is putting all of it's wattage into heat you are not going to get any light. Get the picture? All wattage is being used in different forms, but not can go all into 1, unless, example, pump is dead headed and cavitating, then it is not moving water and going into heat. Bob

[rbursek]

That is why there are efficiency ratings on things/appliances, what goes into waste energy and what is actually turned into what it is doing, example AC, refrigerators, furnaces, freezers ect. ect. Oh by the way it is a water heater, not a hot water heater, you would not need to heat a hot water heater because it is already hot!!!!!!!! LOL!!!!!!!
Bob