"hot time summer in the city"

[capn_hylinur]

I think it is safe to same that the norm temp for running our tanks is 78-80. I am debating with an experienced vetran on another sight who insists he runs his tank at 90 degrees plus with no problems because that is what it gets to on real reefs.

Here is what I have initially stated:
True, for tropic regions---but that's open sea--not a closed ecosystem like our tanks. We have to expose corals to that high temp that might not experience it in deep water---the surface area might be that high but not at a lower depth--down there it is constant and cooler--so sometimes we are forcing corals and fish to adapt--something they don't do well.
Also the higher temp 'creates a possible situation" to alter water chemistry allowing for increased DOC and carbon dioxide levels. It also wears down fish immunity in some fish trying desperately to defy nature and adapt to higher temps--leaving them open to become infected with organisms like ich.

help me out here--I don't think I am way off base here--but I am I am completely open to correction
__________________

[Wrench]

I had my temp spike last month up to 94* and it didn't look good. I lost a couple fish and several corals. I'd say 85* is the absolute max.

[frederickk]

Ouch! 94 is quite high. Are you thinking of getting a chiller for your tank?

[buzzer]

I believe chillers are the best investment and getting cheaper for a saltwater tank.
Alot of LFS also allow to by over a 10 month interest free period which helps to get the purchase past the other half.

[greenbean36191]

For the most part the guy you're debating with is right. 90 is a bit high and is in the danger zone for most species though. Some reefs do get that high (i.e. Kwajalein, one of the world's biggest atolls), but most only average a high of about 86.

We have to expose corals to that high temp that might not experience it in deep water---the surface area might be that high but not at a lower depth--down there it is constant and cooler--so sometimes we are forcing corals and fish to adapt--something they don't do well.

Corals do experience these temperatures, even in deep water. The top hundred meters of ocean are considered "well-mixed" meaning temp change doesn't correlate that well with depth. Usually over the depths you find corals in you're talking about a 2-3 degree drop from sea surface temps. I've even been places where it was about 6 degrees warmer 40 feet down than it was at the surface. Also, temperatures in the ocean are not constant and never have been. The myth in the hobby that coral reef animals aren't able to deal with temperature swings is absolute nonsense.

Also the higher temp 'creates a possible situation" to alter water chemistry allowing for increased DOC and carbon dioxide levels. It also wears down fish immunity in some fish trying desperately to defy nature and adapt to higher temps--leaving them open to become infected with organisms like ich.

Gas concentrations aren't an issue even at 90 unless you've already got compounding problems with aeration. Even accounting for increased metabolism you still have quite a bit of room for error. Also, there isn't any empirical evidence showing any link between high temps and increased rate of ich infection.

[Wrench]

Originally posted by frederickk
Ouch! 94 is quite high. Are you thinking of getting a chiller for your tank?

I refuse to get a chiller. A couple fans blowing across the surface of the water and venting the MH canopy did the trick for me.

[capn_hylinur]

Originally posted by greenbean36191
For the most part the guy you're debating with is right. 90 is a bit high and is in the danger zone for most species though. Some reefs do get that high (i.e. Kwajalein, one of the world's biggest atolls), but most only average a high of about 86.


Corals do experience these temperatures, even in deep water. The top hundred meters of ocean are considered "well-mixed" meaning temp change doesn't correlate that well with depth. Usually over the depths you find corals in you're talking about a 2-3 degree drop from sea surface temps. I've even been places where it was about 6 degrees warmer 40 feet down than it was at the surface. Also, temperatures in the ocean are not constant and never have been. The myth in the hobby that coral reef animals aren't able to deal with temperature swings is absolute nonsense.


Gas concentrations aren't an issue even at 90 unless you've already got compounding problems with aeration. Even accounting for increased metabolism you still have quite a bit of room for error. Also, there isn't any empirical evidence showing any link between high temps and increased rate of ich infection.

Great answer especially from one as experienced as yourself.

Do you not feel that we should be conservative with our temp in reef tanks--80 degress or so---to take into the fact that most of our reefs are a mixed bag of creatures from so many differing areas in the world?

[jhuggins]

that is good to hear. When I went home on my lunch my tank was 83.5 and I freaked out. I checked both heaters and put some frozen bottles in the sump until it got to 82.5. My house was 78 so I have no idea why it got so high?? I guess I will have to watch that in the future.

[tush]

if your temp goes up and the house is cool... check the heater. mine was running even though the temp in the tank was 83 and the house was 78. i have learned that quite a few of the heater elements/thermostats can be faulty or poorly calibrated...

[greenbean36191]

Do you not feel that we should be conservative with our temp in reef tanks--80 degress or so---to take into the fact that most of our reefs are a mixed bag of creatures from so many differing areas in the world?

If your tank naturally stays that cool there is no reason you need to make it warmer, but a lot of people spend a lot of money chasing an "ideal" temp of 78-80 when in reality those temps are on the cool side for most corals. The yearly average for reefs worldwide is about 82 and most hard corals see their best growth around 82-84. Pretty much any reef animals in the hobby will be fine between 76 and 86.

[capn_hylinur]

thanks greenbean---I assume that temp goes for inverts and fish also?
Scott

[greenbean36191]

Yep

[rbursek]

I have had the most problems with heaters then all other equipment, usually sticking on, but if you think about it they are constantly cycling, pumps are running constantly, and I have tried many brands of heaters, none have seemed to be better then the other. MH can add allot of heat and cause temp swings even when you have the AC on.
Bob

[capn_hylinur]

my next investment is in an aquacontroller for these reasons

[capn_hylinur]

[i]The myth in the hobby that coral reef animals aren't able to deal with temperature swings is absolute nonsense.
[/B]

I believe you ---it is amazing what myths you are lead to believe in this hobby.

Does this ability to adapt to sudden changes also apply to salinity,pH and alkalinity----and the big one ammonia/nitrates?

Scott

[nick18tjetta]

I refuse to buy a heater!

[greenbean36191]

Does this ability to adapt to sudden changes also apply to salinity,pH and alkalinity----and the big one ammonia/nitrates?

This depends a lot more on which animals you're talking about. For the most part reef animals are fine with fairly quick changes in salinity (like 6 or so ppt in an hour). I don't worry about keeping salinity pegged at a specific value, but because there are a few exceptions that don't tolerate changes in salinity well, I try to minimize the swing.

As far as pH, the answer is pretty much the same. A range of about .4-.6 pH points from day to night is nothing to worry about.

Alkalinity, I don't know about. I'm not sure anyone has quantified short-term changes.

Nitrate and Ammonia are also a bit of a mystery. Like most parameters on the reef, they aren't stable. There are pulses of nutrients due to upwelling, internal waves, storm runoff, disturbed sediment, fish sleeping in coral heads etc. but whether those pulses help or hurt the reef is still being debated. There is work supporting both sides. Despite what you hear in the hobby and even in the mass media, the role or nutrient dynamics on reef health is very poorly understood.