DSB Heresy

[Shoestring Reefer]

Originally posted by tankslave
why the heck would you put sand in your tank, other than it looks pretty....

Why keep a nutrient sink?
Go back to the Berlin system: LR+Skimmer. Its all you need.

Actually, it has been my experience and the experience of many others that a sandbed is required for keeping pods, and pods are required for mandarins. I yanked my DSB to grow shrooms and zoos on the glass (whick looks awesome in other people's tanks, but I'd rather have pods) my pods dissappeared, so I still don't have a mandarin. With ample pods, everything I've read about mandarins says they are a robust fish, and you don't have to worry about feeding them when you go on vacation. Like anything else, you just have to know where they come from. Plus, IMO they are gorgeous. So that's why the heck someone would put sand in their tank.

By the way-when I yanked my sandbed, it was Bomber who first told me I would loose my pods. When I asked why I lost my pods (months later), it was Dr. Ron who pointed out my missing sandbed. So no matter what side of the "DSB/BB" argument you are on (if you give a crap) either side will say you need some sand for pods.

Originally posted by tankslave
I wouldn't talk about "raping the ocean" on a reefer thread. If you have a tank with one fish in it, there was about 5-10 fish that died on the way so that your fish could get to your tank.

Let us not generalize, grasshopper. I have 3 fish in my 125-a pajama cardinal and 2 clowns. All three were captive bred. The clowns were ORA, I don't know who bred the cardinal but the fish was tiny and the price was not. From what I understand, cardinals are not often bred because of the high price needed. All my rock was either made by me, dry limestone-type rock, or bought from local clubmembers who had some to spare.

So, while I plan on a some wild-caught fish in the future (maybe this year, maybe not), I wouldn't say I've been raping the ocean. I eat more fish in a year than I buy, anyways. Someday I'll get that mandarin, maybe a copper banded butterfly, which is a baitfish.

[tankslave]

Originally posted by Richard Francis
What you would or would not do is no concern of mine. You speak as if you have many years of experience, but are probably only 18 -19 years old. Why would anybody rely on your experience? If you can't get past the mortality rate of marine animals, then you should get out of the hobby instead of giving lectures based on 7-8 hours of experience.

I am 24 years old and have a college degree in physics from UCLA. I have 2.5 years of experience. I started my tank in a dorm room, on what I could afford. This isn't a p*ssing contest, don't make it one. People come here to learn from the experience of others, including you and me. If you have something to contribute, please do.

[jthnhale]

Excuse me while I step out of the way of the P, and I don't mean phosphate.
tankslave is right, he's been presenting his information in a well informed manner, and backing up his ideas with his experiences. that's what this board is all about. Once in a while people post an opinion or two, if you don't agree then you can state your opinion as well. Attacking someone with personal barbs based on conjecture will go nowhere and will ultimately get the post shut down, that sucks for everyone.
In this case tankslave was pointing out a valid argument over wild caught fish, it's true that many wild fish die to get just one healthy one to you. This is a topic that should concern everyone in this hobby.
Okay you may go back to arguing over whether or not to have a stinky sand bed in your tank or not. That's not meant to provoke, they do smell.

[darrellh]

Shoestring,

Who is that in your avatar? (and don't say your wife)

Thanks,
Darrell

[Shoestring Reefer]

Grace Park, most recently on "Battlestar Galactica". The downside of that show is that they have too many characters, so she doesn't get enough camera time.

[darrellh]

Thanks Shoestring,

She kinda looks like Phoebe Cates in her hay-day...definately my type.

[tankslave]

That plenum water is pretty smelly...

[darrellh]

jeez, dream on

[Shoestring Reefer]

He he, search for Phoebe Cates brought up a lot of blocked sites. I guess work doesn't let us go to sites with "naked" in the URL.

[darrellh]

Phoebe was in the original 'Gremlins' movie (should be tame enough for web filters). If you want the best gratuitous scene in any movie ever, rent 'Fast Times at Ridgemont High'. It's not the first skin scene in the movie...you'll know when you get there, though.

Darrell

[RedEyeReef]

That's one way to calm everyone down , talk about beautiful girls....

Now back to the topic.

[Tristan]

DSB = Greater bio-diversity ; no questions asked. Depending on what kind of tank you have and your experience, you could care less about bio-diversity. To some of us it is greatly appreciated . I am aware that many people have bad experiences with DSB’s . From experience and reading exhaustive hours on this subject, I am pro sand bed . Anybody who has had a sand bed fail; ask yourself this? Did I really have a nice layer 5 or 6 + inches (true minimum by my standards) inches of nice fine aragonite sand? If yes, than did I really have dynamic circulation in the tank containing the DSB? And in my positive experience, a DSB will only stink if it is failing thus likely NOT set up properly.
JMO

[tankslave]

What size substrate do you guys use, for those who have a "successful" DSB running?

[nigle]

Oi!

OK Lets. So for all the time that humans have been trying to keep aminals in their home from the reef [+- since about 1870] all we can actually agree on is that the animals come from the oceans; require salt water; and die eventually.

Rock; sand; food; light; water movement; additives; etc. are alll up for grabs.

When I first got started about 5 years ago, [discounting the the tank that my brother started in the 60's when he and I had about 400 gal of tanks {like everyone in the 60's were going breed the 'best' fan tail guppies in the world} and after setting up the salt water tank waited for it to 'cycle' but at the time we didn't actually know about cycling, he just waited for the LFS to get some saltwater fish, but they never did and the tank became an algae factory so he finally through it out] I went to the local library since I was waiting for my 'current' reefing books to come in from my LFS and the books that the library has was one from the 50's and two from the 60's and one from the 70's but none from the 80's or 90's.

If you want a good idea of the 'searching in the dark' that was going on just a few decades ago, go to the library and look at the old books, or talk to the old 'reefers' at conferences like IMAC. You think that these discussions are 'silly' now, some of the advice that was given out in the old books then were absolutely arcain, now.

What we know now is light years ahead of what was discussed just a few years ago.................and what do I make of it.........we are still [somewhat] groping in the dark. Yes if you mention an under substrate filter now in a reef tank, most will cringe. But that was 'standard' just 20 years ago, and they kept things alive.

In one of the many books I have [sorry I don't know which one but after I say this some of you well know the passage] a ship captains wife had a salt water tank in 1880's [or some time back there] that had anemones that were brought back [slowly on sailing ships] and kept alive for years with her 'flicking' the water every morning while she had here morning tea. The tanks was up for years.

See, that worked.

All the discussion about this and that is just 'tweaking' from that tank in the 1800's.

Some things work, some things don't seem to work, we are all still tweaking. Some reefers can do one thing that would 'kill' a tank by others, ONE SYSTEM IS NOT THE END ALL BE ALL.

I enjoy these discussions about 0,00% differences in our ways of doing things, but lets face it people what works for one doesn't ALWAYS have to work for others, there are still way too many variables in every tank to say "this is the way, the light".

With that said lets get back to 'bashing one another'.

Cheers!
nigle
!~!

[DougSupreme]

I personally use sugar sized aragonite (SouthDown to be exact) although I wouldn't call my DSB successful yet. OInly been up a year, but I am using the CPW system, and my nitrates are near zero. Mostly due to overfeeding and a lack of maturation of my sandbed at the beginning. Time will tell. If it doesn't work, I'll do it differently next time

[tankslave]

arn't you worried about it getting clogged up with detritus and loosing porosity?

[DougSupreme]

I am consistently trying to introduce more and more detrivores and sand sifters. I haven't noticed a problem with my sandbed clumping anywhere.

[tankslave]

hmmm, you always have to keep putting more detritivores in with a DSB, huh...
[img]http:/freeconservatives.com/smilies/cool_shades.gif[/img]

[tankslave]

awww, the smilie didn't work... [img]http:/freeconservatives.com/smilies/cool_shades.gif[/img]

[DougSupreme]

I aqm constantly trying to increase my biodiversity. I try to pick up a "good piece" of live rock anywhere I see one. I have recently added a refugium to increase my bio-diversity even further. Jamesurq has graciously started the Second Annual National Sandswap in an effort to improve the diversity of many peoples' sandbeds. There is a sticky at the top of the reef discussion board. I think a healthy population of infauna is VITAL to the sucess of a DSB. I could be wrong, but time will tell.

[tankslave]

I agree with you about the biodiversity thing, but im just wondering if you find that the infauna survive and reproduce, or if they eventually die off.

[DougSupreme]

Honestly, my pods were consumed by a poor choice in livestock. I got a serpent star without researching enough to know they would decimate my pod population. Otherwise, my populations of bristles, peanut worms, spaghetti worms, etc. have really taken off. I'm hoping that the Sand trade helps too, although I don't feel that I really need the extra boost, I just want it.

[DougSupreme]

BTW, my pods are now reproducing nicely in my 'Fuge. I hope to be able to repopulate my display in a few weeks.

[Tristan]

I have all kinds of pods that I did not even introduce, just from live rock. I have all kinds of stuff crawling on the glass everywhere that I wish I could identify! I even have tiny free swimming pods that I can observe if the circulation is shut off for a couple moments. I have a huge feather duster that I have had for 2 years and that I don't spot feed any phyto and he seems to be thriving. (has more than doubled in sized and poops nearly constantly!) Most experienced people say they are impossible to keep for more than a year no matter what you try to feed them.. Well from my experience this depends what you have in your tank as food competitors.. Anyways I did not go with sugar sized, I went with special grade which is the next step up in size. I don't have any intended detritivores . Remember these words;
the deeper the better, the more dynamic the water circulation the better. That will ensure no failure in the sand bed. I have never touched the sand bed in any manner, have never ever vacuumed or stirred or anything like that. My water smells very nice and clean and have never detected any hydrogen sulphide. I also have no black spots anywhere after 3 years. I have known people who have had problems with their bed that everybody fears, but by my standards, it was not set up properly . Don't be so fast to fall into the anti-sand bed trend until you try it and have one fail please. Once it goes bad, than talk bad about it, but until then... please, just do it! Just remember, If your think 3 inches will be fine.... double that please, and make sure you are in the 20 x + range . If your sand bed does for you what it does for me, you will be amazed and will be annoyed by the negative comments pertaining to sand beds. Oh yeah, just for that next wise guy, I have no detectable phosphates. My tank runs off sand bed + live rock + over sized skimmer with ozone. No mechanical filtration and sparse carbon use. I perhaps should use carbon more often, just too lazy.
Please remember this is JMO from my positive experience.

[astronaut]

wow, thats cool. you really sound like you know what youre doing. i have one question, though. do you have a larger (e.g. 75 gallon+) tank for that yellow tang to go into once it grows?