Can we talk about Zeo, if we promise to be civil?

[ldrhawke]

Lighten up guys.....I still think the Zeolite dust gets into the SPS bellies and absorbs toxic waste and relieves upset stomach which makes them bright and happy. Kind of like Tums antacid tablets for coral.........

[burntom]

Well, maybe this'll work as an interesting diversion (at least be a distraction for a split second - it may well be an incredibly easy question which experts don't need to think to answer).

Originally posted by burntom
OK, very interesting thread (a lot over my head), so I hope no-one minds me asking a layman's question relating to something a while back. Anyone can answer, but Bomber's posts got me thinking on this, so I'd like to hear his views.

Some have suggested that a too rapid removal of pollutants from a tank could cause the death of corals. Bomber, you said that this wouldn't be a problem, as corals have to deal with massive changes in water condition every day with the tide. This got me thinking and it occured to me that these are regular occurences. Is it not possible that a coral can adapt to regular swings in water conditions, as long as the swings themselves are predictable? Or is it simply because they're more resilient in the wild than in our tanks?

Wouldn't the example of someone's previously not particularly clean tank suddenly becoming very clean not be more akin to corals in a deepish lagoon suddenly finding themselves in much clearer, shallower water? Would it be a problem for them then? I honestly don't know the answer and I am just interested to hear opinions. As I said, I'm a layman, through and through.

[snuggle]

Well, I live in Taiwan, and it's a tropical Island. For years I have seen the coastal reef turning it's color due to population growth and tourism. The sps coral is especially effected by this. The heavy populated Nothern part of Taiwan has the majority reef color brown and with little green, (sometimes bright red in different season) But the Southern part of Island, the sps has much more color and with the PO4 reading of 0.02-0.04 compares to the reading of 0.15-0.25 from the nothern part of the Island.
Some of the older folks (fisherman/diver ) tells me that the coral reef in the Northen part of the Island have changed a lot (colorwise) compare to 40-50 years ago. I truelly believe that the nutrient is one big factor.
I have a few of these brown sps in my tank, and the color changes (much lighter brown color in the begining). I have seen brown sps from the wild and turned into all sorts of color in my tank.
I also noticed that the reef in the northern part of the Island had only a few types of the sps species, but the southern part has a lot more variety. Some says the temperature is one big factor. But some older folks says, it's because of the pollution.
Now Acans and Buttons are more populated in the northen region. Very little find in the south. I guess they like the high nutrient.

[bluereefs]

Great first hand info,snuggle,thank you

[Habib]

Originally posted by gregt
What are "pigments"? How are they created (or collected), and how does a coral create (or collect) more after it is bleached?

It's sure a whole lot easier to answer the above if the pigments are actually zoox or in zoox.

Pigments are substances which have a color (white would be a color too in the case of pigments like the white pigment in toothpaste).

The color of corals is due to reflectance of light, adsorbtion of certain wavelengths (colors) of light and modification of the wavelength of light (fluorescence). The relative proportion of each and the spectral characteristics of light and absorbtion of light by water, dissolved substances in the water and such determines the perceived color.

If the polyps are colored then that will also influence the perceived color depending on how much they are extended.



Zoox can be, by virtue of the possible pigments and biochemistry) be green if there is primarly chlorophyll. If there are also other differently colored pigments in the zoox then the color will be between light brown upto very dark brown. The pigments (photosynthetic and non-photosynthetic ones) in zoox are well known and characterized.


The bright (spectacular) colors are from pigments (GFP-like proteins) and are present in the host tissue NOT in zoox.

The presence of it and their function (not all is known yet) and their structure is described in many renowed scientific publications and is known for ages.

Here is an example of it. The yellow/brown patches are the zoox:




pic is taken by Dana Riddle

[ldrhawke]

Originally posted by snuggle
Well, I live in Taiwan, and it's a tropical Island. For years I have seen the coastal reef turning it's color due to population growth and tourism. The sps coral is especially effected by this. The heavy populated Nothern part of Taiwan has the majority reef color brown and with little green, (sometimes bright red in different season) But the Southern part of Island, the sps has much more color and with the PO4 reading of 0.02-0.04 compares to the reading of 0.15-0.25 from the nothern part of the Island.
Some of the older folks (fisherman/diver ) tells me that the coral reef in the Northen part of the Island have changed a lot (colorwise) compare to 40-50 years ago. I truelly believe that the nutrient is one big factor.
I have a few of these brown sps in my tank, and the color changes (much lighter brown color in the begining). I have seen brown sps from the wild and turned into all sorts of color in my tank.
I also noticed that the reef in the northern part of the Island had only a few types of the sps species, but the southern part has a lot more variety. Some says the temperature is one big factor. But some older folks says, it's because of the pollution.
Now Acans and Buttons are more populated in the northen region. Very little find in the south. I guess they like the high nutrient.

Thanks snuggle........

Your personal experience and the long history of a reef where you live, and how pollution appears to affect the bright colored reef, makes real sense.

The natural color of SPS is not brown, unless the water around a reef becomes polluted. The brown photosynthetic process becomes a more dominant factor for coral survial as phosphates slows down the non-photosynthetic process and coral struggle to survive in polluted water.

What ever ZEO does or what maintaining a low nutrient condition does, in our tanks to drive out the brown zoox and allow the non-photosynthetic process to become more dominant, brightly color SPS is an indication of healthy coral on a non-polluted reef........not poisoned coral. Brown is not the natural color. It is the survival color.

A colorful SPS tank is a healthy reef tank, not the reverse. Brown SPS on a reef or in our tasks are only brown because they have turned brown as a final effort to survive using photosynthesis as a more dominant process to feed as man or nature pollutes their normally clean living conditions.

Those that say ZEO causes un-natural bright colors are wrong. Brown is not beautiful. It is un-natural.

[gregt]

Originally posted by ldrhawke
Thanks snuggle........

Your personal experience and the long history of a reef where you live, and how pollution appears to affect the bright colored reef, makes real sense.

The natural color of SPS is not brown, unless the water around a reef becomes polluted. The brown photosynthetic process becomes a more dominant factor for coral survial as phosphates slows down the non-photosynthetic process and coral struggle to survive in polluted water.

What ever ZEO does or what maintaining a low nutrient condition does, in our tanks to drive out the brown zoox and allow the non-photosynthetic process to become more dominant, brightly color SPS is an indication of healthy coral on a non-polluted reef........not poisoned coral. Brown is not the natural color. It is the survival color.

A colorful SPS tank is a healthy reef tank, not the reverse. Brown SPS on a reef or in our tasks are only brown because they have turned brown as a final effort to survive using photosynthesis as a more dominant process to feed as man or nature pollutes their normally clean living conditions.

Those that say ZEO causes un-natural bright colors are wrong. Brown is not beautiful. It is un-natural.

IMO this it the most factually incorrect and misleading post of the entire thread. Reality and the facts simply do not support anything in that post.

[Habib]

Which corals are healthy and which one not or which parts of it?

[italianreef]

Originally posted by ldrhawke
Brown is not the natural color. It is the survival color.

Altough I perfectly understand what you mean, I think you oversimplified the question.

When I said about "looking a reef from the plane" I meant that the prevailing color from the plane is a pale tan-brown due to the combination of the photosynthetic pigments of the zooxanthellae that gives a light brown look.

Most corals on a tropical reef are various shades of light brown. This is evident.

Most species don't have the genetic "machinery" to produce colorful pigments, so they show up the light brown hue as a sum of colors of the main photosinthetic pigments inside the symbiotic dinoflagellates. Colorful (and very sought-after) pigments do exists, of course, but are present in sparse colonies which are so scattered all over the reef that the prevailing color from a plane remains light brown. Collectors obviously take the colored piece and leave the dull brown ones in place.

If you increase nutrients in such a pristine reef you'll probably see the diffused light brown become darker and some colorful pigments will be masked by the increased number and size of the PSU in which zoox reside. The thick layer of zoox will eventually cover the pigments and leave dull brown corals.

[ichthyman]

Those that say ZEO causes un-natural bright colors are wrong. Brown is not beautiful. It is un-natural.

You may want to consult Veron's Corals of the World. Brown is the most often used term in describing the color of acroporas. So all of those corals Veron described as various shades of brown are unhealthy in their natural environment? What color should A. palmata be?

[gregt]

Acropora cervicornis only come in brown. Nowhere in the world does this species have another color. I guess that means it's unhealthy.

Habib, the part of the coral that is green from algae growing on it is unhealthy.

[italianreef]

Habib, that's the nano on your desk, right?

[Habib]

Here is the same pic again but this time with the text included.
The GFP proteins are the pink and blueish-violet ones and still intact in this case the host after the mass-bleaching event:

[wizardgus®]

I have no interest in reading 33 pages on this subject. Personally I didn't believe that this would work (this discussion) and so far it appears I was right.

Now the title of this thread says if we remain civil. The next time I see UA violations in here on either side I'm locking it and throwing away the key. I have friends on both sides of this argument, Man! I HATE this topic!

[boobookitty]

So, do we vote now as to whether zoox are brown/green or other colors?

It seems like this should be a pretty easy-to-answer question, whether zoox are brown/green or other colors. If we can't get agreement on this simple fact, how are we going to come to any conclusions about anything?

Dave, the litmus test would be when they bleach do you end up with a really bright light pastel color of what they were before.
If they bleach and retain color, then that's coral pigment not zoox.

But if you ever actually see this in person, you realize how pale and pastel that color really is and how little it would contribute to what you see.

That bleached hyacinth doesn't look "pale and pastel" to me.

So far, we've seen several quotes from papers and articles stating that zoox are brown/green, and anyone can find more simply doing a google search. The other side has posted one college paper (that references Microsoft Encarta articles ), and has the primary argument that bleached corals are just white. So far the evidence tilts heavily towards zoox being brown/green. Is there any scientific evidence showing that zoox can, in fact, be blue, or red, or orange?

Arthur

[Habib]

For those interested here is some history regarding the pigments in coral tissues (not zooxanthellae) going back to 1940.

Some of the info is somewhat outdated but shows a piece of history.

[ldrhawke]

Originally posted by gregt
IMO this it the most factually incorrect and misleading post of the entire thread. Reality and the facts simply do not support anything in that post.

To your civil response.....Allow me correct or restate my leading sentence:

The naturally colorful SPS corals that most everyone likes to buy and puts into their tanks is not brown,.........


The natural color of the SPS is not brown, unless the water around a reef becomes polluted. The brown photosynthetic process becomes a more dominant factor for coral survial as phosphates slows down the non-photosynthetic process and coral struggle to survive in polluted water.

What ever ZEO does or what maintaining a low nutrient condition does, in our tanks to drive out the brown zoox and allow the non-photosynthetic process to become more dominant, brightly color SPS is an indication of healthy coral on a non-polluted reef........not poisoned coral. Brown is not the natural color. It is the survival color.

A colorful SPS tank is a healthy reef tank, not the reverse. Brown SPS on a reef or in our tasks are only brown because they have turned brown as a final effort to survive using photosynthesis as a more dominant process to feed as man or nature pollutes their normally clean living conditions.

Those that say ZEO causes un-natural bright colors are wrong. Brown is not beautiful. It is un-natural (for colored SPS coral).

[gregt]

I've seen no evidence that suggests that brightly colored corals are healthier than darker colored corals and that corals with very few zoox are healthier. That's exactly the opposite conclustion that I come to looking at the evidence. I admit I may be wrong.

[MiddletonMark]

Originally posted by ldrhawke
The natural color of the SPS is not brown, unless the water around a reef becomes polluted. The brown photosynthetic process becomes a more dominant factor for coral survial as phosphates slows down the non-photosynthetic process and coral struggle to survive in polluted water.
...
Brown is not the natural color. It is the survival color.
...
A colorful SPS tank is a healthy reef tank, not the reverse. Brown SPS on a reef or in our tasks are only brown because they have turned brown as a final effort to survive using photosynthesis as a more dominant process to feed as man or nature pollutes their normally clean living conditions.

Brown is not beautiful. It is un-natural (for colored SPS coral).

So, you are arguing that SPS corals, Acropora in particular, do not get their primary source of energy from light - that using any significant photosynthetic products is `survival mode' for these corals?

That the reason why they evolved to depend on the sugars/etc from zooxanthellae was solely for survival? That they don't live on the reef tops, only in areas with intense light - for the light?

Why do any of us have MH's?
Why do you have anything more than NO lighting on your tank?
Why do you need lights at all?

No offense intended, but this is stunning as to how it contradicts everything that I've read about these corals. I guess the truly healthy Acropora all live below 100'

[SCARYBO]

I cant agree with the statement that because a coral is the color brown or any dark color that means the coral is unhealthy. That is much to simple an indicator IMO. We still dont really know what influences color in a sps. How can we say that being dark is unhealthy.

I am however intrigued by what color zoo are. I have always read that they are brown and green. I am curious if that is true.

[boobookitty]

I am however intrigued by what color zoo are. I have always read that they are brown and green. I am curious if that is true.


Agreed. If they come in other colors, it should be pretty simply to provide scientific evidence, I would think.

Arthur

[ldrhawke]

Originally posted by gregt
I've seen no evidence that suggests that brightly colored corals are healthier than darker colored corals and that corals with very few zoox are healthier. That's exactly the opposite conclustion that I come to looking at the evidence. I admit I may be wrong.

Thank You.....and I will restate what I have restated.

You may also well be right, brown SPS may be healthier and grow faster that some of their more colorful brothers and sisters, by getting a tad more nutrients. It may be the more colorful one that are stressed and reverting to us color to over come the lack of nutrients. Again, like plants that are stressed, this may be natures way of coping by improving color to attract animals and improve the odds of populating.

But the fact is, it is the bright colored SPS that attracted most SPS reef keepers. I thought the heart these discussions was "how to maintain safely SPS bright colors" as much as "Why are they colored". I don't think we see many reef keepers bragging and posting pictures of dull brown SPS tanks on RC. I don't remember seeing any Tanks of the Month that are loaded with healthy brown SPS. I don't believe anyone is striving to maintain low nutrient tanks with zero phosphates and nitrates to grow brown SPS. Hobbyists are not paying outrageous prices for a 1/2 " frag of Original Tyree Limited Edition SPS because they are a beautiful brown.

and last but not least...tank photographers don't spend all those hours doctoring up reef tank pictures with PhotoShop to enrich the brown colors....

[Tom Berry]

Bright colors are the primary reason I, and I believe many others, keep sps. Are the colors of freshly imported sps unnatural or unhealthy?

Thomas Pohl's reason for developing zeovit was to enable himself, and his shops customers, to maintain these colors in their tanks. Ultimately, it is up to the individual to determine whether he has succeeded or not. However, if someone believes that brightly colored, growing sps are unhealthy or unnatural, then it seems to me that zeovit is incompatible with their goals, and they shouldn't use it. Please note that I am NOT saying zeovit is the only way to maintain colorful sps.

Tom

[SCARYBO]

Originally posted by ldrhawke
Thank You.....and I will restate what I have restated.

You may also well be right, brown SPS may be healthier and grow faster that some of their more colorful brothers and sisters, by getting a tad more nutrients. It may be the more colorful one that are stressed and reverting to us color to over come the lack of nutrients. Again, like plants that are stressed, this may be natures way of coping by improving color to attract animals and improve the odds of populating.

But the fact is, it is the bright colored SPS that attracted most SPS reef keepers. I thought the heart these discussions was "how to maintain safely SPS bright colors" as much as "Why are they colored". I don't think we see many reef keepers bragging and posting pictures of dull brown SPS tanks on RC. I don't remember seeing any Tanks of the Month that are loaded with healthy brown SPS. I don't believe anyone is striving to maintain low nutrient tanks with zero phosphates and nitrates to grow brown SPS. Hobbyists are not paying outrageous prices for a 1/2 " frag of Original Tyree Limited Edition SPS because they are a beautiful brown.

I understand your point, but personal hobbyist preference and taste isnt a real good form of measurement of health. Nature cares little fo what we like. Personal taste and preference makes people do some strange things (ie. Breast implants, 70 year old men taking viagra, low carb diets, and tanning salons). In my experience, most things that are popular in society are usually unhealthy.

[SCARYBO]

Originally posted by Tom Berry
Bright colors are the primary reason I, and I believe many others, keep sps. Are the colors of freshly imported sps unnatural or unhealthy?

Thomas Pohl's reason for developing zeovit was to enable himself, and his shops customers, to maintain these colors in their tanks. Ultimately, it is up to the individual to determine whether he has succeeded or not. However, if someone believes that brightly colored, growing sps are unhealthy or unnatural, then it seems to me that zeovit is incompatible with their goals, and they shouldn't use it. Please note that I am NOT saying zeovit is the only way to maintain colorful sps.

Tom

I think some bright colored sps are healthy, but I also agree some brown sps are healthy. The reason I say "some" in both statements is I dont think you can determine health by color alone.

Now I do think that most sps imported are colorful at one time. I cant imagine an importer collecting brown sps to import. There would be no market for his product.