Making Lemonade Out Of Lemons!

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Originally posted by just dave
And one other thing, I'd use tru-unions on the inlet and outlets. I do so on all pumps or devices that will fail or need servicing. A little more money and time spent now will keep the cursing down later. I use the American Valve tru-unions found at Lowes.

Your smaller return pump is plumbed in a very restrictive manor as well especially with that elbow so close to the inlet. I can see it better now that the spare has been removed.

Thanks again for all of the input, Dave. To be honest with you, Lowe's is where I went last night, and I was trying to find those tru-unions that you were talking about, but I didn't see any. I saw quite a few for 2 inch and 3 inch pipe, but none for the 1 inch threads. I need to run back up there today anyway, so I'll check again or ask for assistance. I'll also take another gander at the 2 inch pipe. This morning, the 1 1/2 inch doesn't look as intimidating as it did last night! Thanks!

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Originally posted by NanoGurl
Sorry I can't be of much help here... no idea how to do all of this plumbing.. my drain problem was enough for me! Staying positive for moral support though!

Thank you NanoGurl! Believe it or not, your positive moral support helps me out tremendously. I get nerve ridden on RC sometimes because I am new at this stuff, and I don't have 25,000 posts under my name, but your encouragement always goes a long way!

I hope to see you back on your thread soon. I just upgraded from a 75 (now my sump) to this 120 back in March, so you and I are right there together in terms of stock and experience. Anyway, I hope that it gets back on track for you. I would really miss your thread on here if you were to cease and desist.

[NanoGurl]

Thanks

I'm glad I can help keep you positive! When all else fails, smile right?

I think your tank is great and you've done a great job. It's fun watching it get built. I like how your thread was creative and different.. one of the best on RC for sure!

I'll see what happens with my thread Don't worry, I'll still be bugging you on yours lol.

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Originally posted by NanoGurl
Don't worry, I'll still be bugging you on yours lol.

Okay!

[just dave]

A tru-union is a ball valve with a union on each side. They always seem to be on the next aisle over from the PVC pipe and fittings and they will be slip x slip. Buy a threaded reducer bushing ( not coupling ) to take the 2" and 1 1/2" down to 1".

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DAVE:
I finally saw the true unions that you were talking about up there, and you're right-they are over on the next aisle by the water line stuff. I didn't see your post until just now though with the threaded bushing suggestion, and this was the part that was throwing me off up at Lowe's. I couldn't figure out how to get the true union to the pump without cementing it. NOW I do!

Anyway I went ahead without using one, but if I ever need to remove the pump, I will just cut the flex line and put one in whenever I re-connect. Thanks for the tip. I have seen those true unions on other people's plumbing, here on RC, and I always wondered what they were for. I thought it might be some kind of flush valve or something.

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Here we go:

I ended up caving in and I walked a plank of trust by going ahead with the 2 inch PVC on the Intake. It still looks HUGE to me, but I went for it. Here's the new layout:



I did as Dave suggested and took advantage of the natural curve of the flex PVC. On the Output from the pump, I utilized his "S" shape theory using couplers, and it worked great! The Intake to the pump was simple enough with a bowed straight connect. This was my first experience with flex PVC, but I think that this stuff was made by the Gods!

I drilled holes through the top of the stand that perfectly house the coupler fittings. This gave me a great, solid connection point to run the upper pipework from there.




HERE'S THE NEW 2 INCH INTAKE. I THINK I DRILLED A BILLION HOLES!


DO YOU THINK THIS IS TOO MANY HOLES? PLEASE TELL ME NOW BEFORE I GET THIS ONE GOING...

On the OUTPUT, I used 1 1/2 inch rigid PVC, and still centered the "T". I split off from there towards the 2 standpipes which I saved from the previous configuration. I was able to find 1 1/2 in. x 3/4 in. reducers that would allow me to wait until the end of the outlet pipes to reduce down. The "T" is water line level now, even though it is still a restrictive spot.






HERE'S THE PIPES BLACKED OUT AGAIN!

That's it. I'll make the final connections tomorrow and fire it up. I feel very confident about the plumbing this time. With the exception of the "T" and the 90's utilized for the output standpipes, everything else is smooth almost to aerodynamic proportions!

But to be honest with you, I'm a little concerned. Even in its previously restricted state, the closed loop configuration was producing quite a bit of flow in this tank. It's only 120 gallons! I just hope that with these latest tweaks that I won't be blowing my fish's cheeks back!!! I guess we'll see tomorrow.

[just dave]

ended up caving in and I walked a plank of trust by going ahead with the 2 inch PVC on the Intake.

I hate to say this but when I said 2" for the intake, I mean't the intake plumbing.....all of it. 1 1/2" is better 'n 1".

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Originally posted by just dave
I hate to say this but when I said 2" for the intake, I mean't the intake plumbing.....all of it. 1 1/2" is better 'n 1".

I thought that would be the case, but I could not find 2 inch flex PVC anywhere local. I didn't want to plumb it with rigid pipe because then I would be back to the 45 and 90 degree elbow restrictions. I think that I am fine with the 1 1/2 inch.

I will try it all out today and see what happens. Thanks.

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But while we're on this subject, there is still something that I am not quite grasping. I don't understand how "The bigger the better" diameter size of the PVC leading to the pump's outlets matters so much. It seems like you could have a 6 FOOT DIAMETER pipe leading to the pump, but you still run smack into those 1 inch threaded outlets on the pump housing.

Is not all of that 2 inch pipe water just standing in the pipe basically waiting its turn to get through that 1 inch hole in the pump? It seems like the pump manufacturer would produce them with 2 inch threaded fittings if that were the case???

[just dave]

I'm no expert and I'm sure many of my designs are flawed. My understanding and application has come from over a decade of doing ,reading ,trying ,.....etc. My understanding of all this is that increasing pipe diameter increases flow rates while decreasing velocity. Higher velocities result in higher friction losses. One of the things I've read and heard ,over and over, is that you want to avoid restricting the intake side of a pump and I've heard this from people that employee pumps in other areas and fields as opposed to just the aquarium sector. One thing that can happen with high intake velocities is cavitation. My advice was offered based on using the same pump in similar applications. Like I said before there are always going to be compromises. If you want to really figure it all out , I'll refer you to this article .

A quote from the above referenced article:

One problem is thinking that if the pump you are using has a ¾” or 1” inlet or outlet that is the size of plumbing that should be used.

I'm not saying that 1 1/2" on the inlet is going to be a problem, I'm saying that I would have used 2" to decrease velocity and resistance. You're right in that Lowe's doesn't carry 2" flex PVC, you have to go someplace else for that (pool and or plumbing suppliers.)

One can obviously over think and over engineer anything to the point of diminishing returns.

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Ah! Now that makes sense! The larger pipe would house a lot more water volume to provide more flow to the pump. Gotcha.

I have a long sweep 2 inch 90 degree elbow out in the garage, and a couple of couplers left over. It would just take a second to switch out that intake flex hose with the 2 inch rigid using the long sweep 90. The 90 might be a little more restrictive than the straight swoop flex connection, but I think that I would profit from the increased pipe diameter. I'll give it a try...

Thanks again for the input and the article link.

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Originally posted by just dave
One can obviously over think and over engineer anything to the point of diminishing returns.

I refuse to subscribe to this Philosophy...

[Lytehouse]

Thanks for not only adding your process and pics but your thinking/planning along the way. Learning a lot and enjoying the process. BTW your tanks and self built canopies and frames are great Lucky fish and corals. Hope to run into you at meeting some month.

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Originally posted by Lytehouse
Thanks for not only adding your process and pics but your thinking/planning along the way. Learning a lot and enjoying the process. BTW your tanks and self built canopies and frames are great Lucky fish and corals. Hope to run into you at meeting some month.

Hey thanks! I really appreciate the comment. I am also learning a lot (mostly by mistakes ) but I am glad that I can take some of the blows for others. I hope that it all helps...

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Well, I ended up switching out the bottom half of the INTAKE plumbing to the 2 inch PVC. I tried to keep it simple with just the one long sweep 90 elbow, but I believe that it is causing a small amount of cavitation near the pump connection. If I turn back the OUTPUT ball valve about 20% it goes away, so I think that I will search out the 2 inch flex PVC from a pool supplier on Tuesday and re-do that bottom half--AGAIN! Honestly though, switching over just that part of the plumbing only took about 10 minutes, so it's no big deal.

Here are some updated pics with the Closed Loop re-do running:


THE NEW 2 INCH WITH THE 90 DEGREE ELBOW (CURSED THING!)




WITH THE BALL VALVE TURNED BACK A BIT. (CURSED THING!)


BACK RIGHT SIDE OUTLET PIPE.


BACK LEFT.


RIGHT FRONT OUTLET PIPE.


LEFT FRONT.

Except for the small amount of cavitation, I LOVE IT! The flow is wonderful! There is a lot of it, but there is not harsh, direct flow anywhere. I'll post some pics of the flow effects on my Pagoda Cup next...

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In these pics of my Pagoda Cup, as soon as I turned the Closed Loop on, the flow blew away a layer of slime off of the Pagoda's surface:


SEE THE WHITE SNOTTY LOOKING STUFF!





So far, so good! Now I just need to watch the tank temperature and see if any of this helped...

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The clip-on floodlight that I put over the Chaeto algae in my sump was also great at growing green and brown algae, so I plopped in a couple of Turbo snails to get to work on it. I took some pics of their progress:





2 HOURS LATER:






MAN ARE THEY POOPED! (LITERALLY!)

Here's about 2 weeks worth of growth on the Chaeto algae:
(It almost won't fit or spin anymore)



Okay, that's all I've got.

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I originally did all of this re-plumbing to the closed loop hoping to bring the heat output from the pump down. And it has by 2.7 degrees. I woke up this morning and the tank temp after the night with no lights on was sitting at 82 degrees. Here lately without running the pump, the temp is around 78 degress in the morning, so it is at least raising the temp by 4 whole degrees.

I will re-plumb that 2 inch 90 elbow on the INTAKE with flex PVC, and I will also re-plumb the 40 HD-X pump to my sump, but I still think that I will need a chiller if I want this closed loop set-up to stay. I simply do not feel comfortable with my tank temps running idle at 82 degrees. Until then though, I will try to get creative with some cooling fans and see if I can't help to bring the temp down a bit...

[NanoGurl]

Update looks great! Good job on the black pvc... it looks so much better then the white. I love how you made it directional Those turbos are doing a great job! hehe.

Sorry to hear about the temps still being hi. 82 is kinda high I guess, though I have been keeping my tank at 81 constantly at night to keep the water warm due to my black ich problem. With the halides on it creeps up to just under 84 after 10 hours of MH.. but I keep the room in the mid 70's. When my A/C broke my tank temps went up to 84 without any lights on at all... so there def isn't much room for error with your current setup!

I don't know if this would help at all... but have you thought about getting a couple of Tunze's powerheads? You could always use them instead of the closed loop for current? Could even hook up the wavemaker stuff to it... but at that point the chiller would probably be cheaper! Idk.. just throwing thoughts out there....

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Originally posted by NanoGurl
Idk.. just throwing thoughts out there....

Well please keep throwing them!

I'm really trying to get away from the powerheads altogether. The ultimate look, that I am going for with this new tank set-up, is basically a big, clean glass box with a piece of the Reef stuck in the middle of it. It's probably my O.C.D. getting the best of me, but I love it when tanks look like they are just transparent; like they have no water in them at all. Yours achieves this effect quite well.

I have been avoiding any full tank shots lately, because this plumbing section has consumed most of my time, but this afternoon I will be able to concentrate on the rockwork, and then I will post some pics of the new scaping. Since the move, I have been dedicated to getting the Life support up and running first, but now that is all semi-finished. I'm looking forward to getting my hands back in the water!

I tilted my box fan down, aiming it more towards the sump surface water, and it has already brought the tank temp down to 81 degrees. I am beginning to feel more hopeful about avoiding a chiller.





HERE ARE SOME TURBO UPDATES. THEY ALMOST HAVE IT CLEAN!





AND I'M FINALLY FIGURING OUT MY SKIMMERS NEW SUMP WATER LEVELS.



That's it for now. Try to check in later for the new tank shots!

[NanoGurl]

Yea... I can def see wanting to avoid equipment inside the main tank... good news about the temps! Update us later on how much it went down. I'll def be checking for photos

Go turbos!

[Lytehouse]

Keep your hands away from that pair of turbo's !!

Hope I didn't miss something and just causing you to repeat, but is your primary concern with the chiller the cost, or is there something else. I understand the cost part.

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Originally posted by Lytehouse
Keep your hands away from that pair of turbo's !!

Hope I didn't miss something and just causing you to repeat, but is your primary concern with the chiller the cost, or is there something else. I understand the cost part.

I guess it's just the cost, but then again, the basic models aren't really that much nowadays. I know that I will spend at least $500 for a new one that I will feel comfortable with. I can't see the chiller kicking on that often, so there wouldn't be much of an increase in electricity or added heat from the unit, and I would probably vent the exhaust through the ceiling and into the attic.

I have seen a few USED chillers just laying around my LFS's store, and I know that she needs some house painting done, so maybe she and I can barter something out! (I'm not really kidding here, Leigh Ann! )

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My VHO lights kick on in 1 minute and the box fan has helped bring the tank temp down to 79.8. Not bad!