Red Acro "Bugs" -- The Treatment

[MiddletonMark]

I guess I don't understand some of these Iodine claims.

Eric suggests

At five to ten minutes, the 5ml dosage stressed the corals, and they had some bleaching. The 10ml dosage was worse. But, at less than 5 minutes for the 5ml dosage, and 2-3 minutes for the 10ml dosage, all corals tolerated it fine, no bleaching, and 100% kill of bugs.

He's using much higher concentrations of Iodine, but for much less time [5 minutes tops]. Not to nit-pick ... but it's odd to make claims on `the other method' when you're not following the suggested directions. I should note that Greg Hiller noted at least some efficacy of using `Reef Dip' in his article about red bugs ... likely the Iodine.

I mean, I can add 3/4 of an interceptor, not change the water or run carbon and likely have some problems. Let's not turn this into the DSB debate, where I can set up a DSB breaking at least a `rule' or many ... then claim they're terrible.

My 2 cents. I thank everyone for their input on this thread, I'm fine if you prove me wrong ... but let's make sure apples are apples.

[Dustin]

I am not sure what your getting at. I will take a picture of the corals, most of which are near death to show you.

[MiddletonMark]

No, what I am saying is that your dip is not the dip that at least Eric recommended. [in terms of concentration to kill red bugs, and time]
I have no doubt one can kill corals or acro crabs with Iodine.

I'm just suggesting that tests with results of `it killed stuff' but not following the stated protocol ... that IMO is not a `test' of that protocol [which it sounded to me like it was made to be].

Does that make sense?

---

I guess I try to compare with 1wireefer's posted experience [and others] where they followed the protocol stated for Iodine and have both alive & red-bug-less Acropora now. I didn't ask about Acro-crabs ... but sounds like both methods kill them.

And when I compare, I see different times and concentrations used ... so I guess I wonder the point of posting this info.

[Dustin]

RyanH posted his results after using Iodine and he still has red bugs. We still had red bugs after 7-8 treatments with iodine around a year ago. Its not 100% effective, even at elevated doses. Here are some pictures of the carnage following a 15min dip at 1ml/L. Longer duration at a much lower dose than Eric suggests. There really is no official protocol for treating with Iodine. We use 1ml/L for 15 minutes based on killing an entirely different parasite.

Before treatment



24hrs after treatment




2nd coral Before Treatment



24hrs after treatment



Some of the dead crabs (100% of them died)


For illustration purposes, here is the color of the dip

[1wireefer]

But that is exactly Mark's point, you did not follow what Eric says works. Your iodine concentration was lower and your time frame was significantly higher. Not at all the same. I followed Eric's recomendation 5ml/1l for 2-3minutes and lost zero coral and killed all red bugs.

If you are going to pass judgements on a method, at least be sure it is the same method!

It wouldn't fair if I posted that I killed everything in my tank because I used interceptor only to find out I didn't follow guidelines as listed in the beginning of this thread, would it?

[ReeferMac]

Hi Dustin, thanks for sharing those pics, especially the last one!
Have you heard anything about a pipe-fish that eats these nasties?

LiveAquaria claims they've found one that does?

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...postid=3085573

- Mac

[hwynboy]

Couldn't agree more with what has been said. From Erics posting to do 2-3 minute dips at a concentration level of 5ml of iodine to 1liter of water...it is the magic solution...at least for me. I used it it worked great. As a sidebar Dustin the dip I used was MUCH darker than the one you show in th pics. Your's is an almost urine yellow color...mine with Kents iodine was a DARK BROWN color, I could not see the frag in the dip.

Maybe you could retry it at a lot shorter time frame 2-3 minutes and use the reccomended dosage by Eric. Then report back and let us know. I dont have any large colonies anymore just frags...and I inspected them with a magnifying glass none is remaining..0 red bugs after my dips.

[AlgaeMan]

Your's is an almost urine yellow color...

LMAO!!

[Dustin]

As I stated, I use the 15 minute dip at a lower dose to get rid of a different parasite that is slightly more resistant than the red bugs. 5ml/L is not an option for 15 minutes. This was never a direct comparison to Erics suggested treatment, rather an example of how horrible your corals can look without being positive you actually got em all.
Even after dipping every coral in a system like this repeatedly for 3 months, the red bugs still returned (yes they are killed at this dosage, we did a lot of testing under a microscope). They didnt return because they survived on the coral, but because they were left in the tank while the corals were getting hammered elsewhere by iodine.

I should have mentioned that only 25% of the corals looked as bad as these two. The rest look decent but are all totally brown.

I have no interest in working with a different dosage or duration of iodine. If I want to get rid of red bugs specifically, I will use interceptor. I know it works, and I know that if I use 100x the normal dosage the corals wont look anything like this.

[1wireefer]

Yes it seems unless you can isolate your corals and keep your tank host free for 3-5 days (life cycle of the red bug) you are only going to re-infect your corals

[JeremyR]

I"m not sure I see the point in the iodine "method". It's more stressful to the corals, the acro crabs die anyways.. and even if you think you are quarantining your corals for a week assuming the bug has a 3-5 day cycle, how do you know every last sliver of encrusting coral on the rock was removed, or that you didn't accidentaly break of a frag that fell in the rocks...and you got every last bug out? There is a saying.. if it ain't broke, don't fix it. I didn't kill a single coral using interceptor, but I sure killed alot of red bugs.. and I haven't seen one since. It's been several months, our frag system was the first treated in the original testing. All the pods are back in full force, and color and growth is back to top notch. I have no qualms about using interceptor in the future.

[1wireefer]

That's great, I have never knocked interceptor. It just wasn't my prefered method of killing the red bugs. To me the effects it has on other organism in the system did not outweigh the benefits given the alternative of using iodine and isolating my tank for the life cycle of the red bugs.

[RyanH]

I have a question. If you need to remove the corals from the tank to do the Lugols dip anyway, why not set up a QT system to hold the acropora and then do a Interceptor dip in that tank? Hold them in there for 3-5 days, and then return to the main tank?

Using the Lugols dip requires you to remove the acropora from the main tank for 3-5 days to allow the red bugs to have their lifecycle run it's course. You have to set up a QT tank to effectively use Lugols.

If you are setting up a QT tank, it seems better to treat with Interceptor there and eliminate the risk of bleaching which is commonly reported with the 5ml/liter Lugols bath. It seems that the primary objection regarding Interceptor is it's unknown long term effects on a tanks infauna. Using it in a QT tank would eliminate such an issue.

I, for one, did the Lugols bath and had terrible results. The reason I did this instead of Interceptor was that aquiring the Interceptor, grinding it up, weighing it out, etc. seemed to be a big pain in the butt. Lugols was much much easier. I'm currently ordering my Interceptor.

Would like the hear what you guys think.

Ryan

[1wireefer]

Well for me, the QT tank was my frag tank with a deep sand bed plumbed into the main tank. I simply disconnected it during the QT time. I wouldn't want to use interceptor in the QT tank for the same reason I chose not to use it in my main tank.

As far as widespread reports of bleaching using the iodine method, I have only seen two reports, neither of which used the proper amount of iodine or the recomended dip time. I would hardly call that wide spread. The only ones I know of who did follow the recomedecd iodine method have reported great success.

Again, I am not knocking the interceptor method and I know it has worked well for others. It was a personal choice for me but I don't think the bleaching results are a fair complaint for the current recommended iodine treatment.

[RyanH]

Maybe that is an unfair characterization, and I can only speak authoritatively about my experience. I used the Lugols dip method exactly as prescribed, and had significant bleaching and lost some coral. Unfortunately I also still have red bugs.

[AlgaeMan]

Its day 5 and I haven't seen any negative effects after treating the tank once with the prescribed dosage. There are a few surviving acro and hermit crabs, and peppermint shrimp. Starfish, emerald crabs, and sally lightfoots didn't seem to be harmed. I am seeing a little more polyp extension on some acros especially a large Secale. I don't think I'm going to treat a second time unless I see red bugs again. If they come back then I'll treat the tank 2 -3 times to permanately remove them.

[achilles1]

Before I dicovered Interceptor (THANKS DUSTIN) I took several frags of corals I know had red bugs from my main system and put them into another smaller FOWLR system. That was over six months ago. The frags in the FOWLR show no evidence of red bugs and have great polyp extension and were growing and coloring up in what I would call poor conditions. The bugs seemed to just disappear? The tank I put the frags into only has a 10K 96 watt pc over it, no skimmer and is overstocked. Where did the bugs go and why are acros growing (slowly) in these conditions?

After I put Interceptor in my main system it is booming of course. Who knew acros could have such large polyps. At this time I also set up a QT tank. I saw red bugs in this system on some corals I bought, but strangely enough with Zero treatment the bugs went away. It's been two months and the bugs appear to be gone and corals are growing and extending really well

Has anyone else had an experice like that?

[merlock116]

update on interceptor treatment: no signs of red bugs... GREAT polyp extension. everything else looks great

[Zoom]

Originally posted by AlgaeMan
Its day 5 and I haven't seen any negative effects after treating the tank once with the prescribed dosage. There are a few surviving acro and hermit crabs, and peppermint shrimp. Starfish, emerald crabs, and sally lightfoots didn't seem to be harmed. I am seeing a little more polyp extension on some acros especially a large Secale. I don't think I'm going to treat a second time unless I see red bugs again. If they come back then I'll treat the tank 2 -3 times to permanately remove them.

You take the plunge and did one treatment .
Why not to treat two more times to be sure they are gone for good ??
I treat my tank three times the first one was hardest the next two was so easy

[AlgaeMan]

You take the plunge and did one treatment .

It was hard enough to do one treatment which killed most of my favorite acro crabs. There are a few survivors and I don't want to risk killing them. Its no biggie. If I see one red bug then I'll have no choice but to do the 3 treatments. I'm sure there are some folks reading this thread that would like to know if its possible to get away with only one treatment.

[Dustin]

If the crabs lived, theres a fair chance the bugs did as well. Crabs seem to be less tolerant of the medication than the red bugs do. I would do at least one more treatment.

[AlgaeMan]

I would do at least one more treatment.

Ok.. Looks like its time to brew another 60g for the big water change..

[Zoom]

Originally posted by AlgaeMan
Ok.. Looks like its time to brew another 60g for the big water change..

I will use a little more interceptor this time AlgaeMan , i kill all of my acro crabs the first time i use the interceptor, so may be you under dosing your tank a little.

[AlgaeMan]

I will use a little more interceptor this time AlgaeMan

I used 3/4 of a pill the first time so I will use a whole pill this time.

[SeanT]

Well,
It is my turn this Thursday.
After months of hemming and hawing something has got to be done.
I would like someone to double check my thoughts though.
I have about 375 actual water gallons. So I am thinking that one of the large pills is just right.
Is this correct?

Thanks,
Sean