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  #1  
Old 06/06/2005, 01:41 AM
Avian Avian is offline
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Pipzine and Maracyn

Can Pipzine or praziquantel (prazipo) and Maracyn be administered in QT water together?
Also does Maracyn or Maracyn2 kill denitrifying bacteria? Thanks
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  #2  
Old 06/06/2005, 03:19 PM
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Some info on Maracyn:
You may want to read from this site: http://www.reefs.org/library/article/r_toonen.html

First of all Maracyn contains erythromycin, Maracyn-Two contains Minocycline. Two very different meds for different ailments one gram positive and one gram negative. You have to know the difference between neg and pos when dealing with meds.

For Maracyn....This one is GRAM POSITIVE, with B complex vitamins, antibiotic (Erythromycin) tablets recommended for the treatment of body fungus, Popeye, gill disease, fin and tail rot, and secondary infections. B vitamins added to stimulate metabolism and improve appetite.

For Maracyn-Two... by the way this med is GRAM NEGATIVE with B complex vitamins, antibiotic (Minocycline) tablets recommended for the treatment of Popeye, gill disease, fin and tail rot, dropsy, septicemia, secondary and internal infections. B vitamins added to stimulate metabolism and improve appetite. The great thing about this med is that it will work even when your fish will not eat.

While Mardel does not promote the use of any of these meds in a reef Maracyn-Two is the exception. There are successful reports of it being used in a reef tank.
  #3  
Old 06/06/2005, 10:21 PM
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Very interesting. I would never add that stuff to the display tank. I was trying to create a regime for when I bring clownfish home, and was curious if any of these meds could be used concurrently and the impact they would have on the denitrifying bacteria in the QT. Thanks.
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  #4  
Old 06/06/2005, 10:24 PM
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I know that many guys are using coppersafe and maracyn in the QT to treat WC clownfish. Since the recommended dosage of coppersafe is over the span of four weeks and maracyn/maracyn2 is only a week, I was wondering if you could treat with piperzine or praziquantel or metroindolzale with coppersafe still in the water.
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  #5  
Old 06/07/2005, 07:27 AM
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Bryan,

I think the definitive answer to your question has to come from the manufacturers of Coppersafe. They know what's in their 'soup' and if it would have a reaction/interference with the other chemicals.

There are two questions to ask the manufacturer: Can it be used at the same time and, can the copper still be properly measured in the presence of the other chemicals? The last question may need to be answered by the makers of the test kit.

If and when you get the answers, please let us know the outcome. You have posed a very good set of questions.

Regards,
  #6  
Old 06/07/2005, 11:05 AM
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Yeah, I think I will try and contact the manufacturers about this one.
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  #7  
Old 06/19/2005, 02:57 PM
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Lee,
I contacted the manufacturer via email and they said that tests have only been done with their products, and reiterated the fact that one could use their products (e.g, maracyn, coppersafe) concurrently (Of course we already knew this!).
I suppose maybe someone would know this answer from experience?
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  #8  
Old 06/19/2005, 03:05 PM
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Bryan,

Thanks for the follow up and friendly post. I wouldn't want to be the one to do the 'experience' thing.

Live Long and Prosper!
  #9  
Old 06/19/2005, 03:17 PM
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Lee,

I am also having a pretty rough time trying to cure my black ocellaris pair of stringy feces. they have been in QT for a month know and have been treated w/ garlic, pepso food, pipzine (for two weeks) in water, and hex-a-mit in food and water (last treatment will be 6/20/05). All treatments have been administered according to directions provided by the manufacturer. They will have stringy feces for a day or two and then have (normal) ones the next day...the trend has been going on for about the entire time I have had them (female=5months, male=2months). The water quality in the QT is good, w/ parameters:
temp - 81
ph - 8.2
amm - 0
nitrite - 0
nitrate - <20

There is a very small piece of liverock in there (2"x1") just for cycling purposes. I feed mysis, cyclop-eeze, formula2 pellets 1-2 daily and will sometimes throw in some omega-3 enriched brine shrimp and this herbivore frozen food. All food is stored correctly (in plastic bag) in freezer.

They eat great, have great color, clear eyes, no upturned scales, fins are always errect and clear and have been like this from day one.

I talked to a marine biologist who said that this can be normal, especially if that is the only thing wrong with them. I know this is a lot but any suggestions? I don't want to medicate any more unless needed
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  #10  
Old 06/19/2005, 06:35 PM
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Bryan,

Sorry to hear of the rough times. Thanks for the detailed info about your concerns. I like having them!

The fecal signs point to an intestinal problem. Most of those problems are caused by worms. The actions you've taken would be the proper ones. I try not to get 'professional' and turn veterinarian on posters, but. . .The feces could be looked at under the microscope by someone who knows what they're looking for. A fecal exam would go a long ways to solve the riddle. An advantage (if there is any) to having a fish/fishes with intestinal problems is that the diagnosis can be done microscopically without having to kill and autopsy the fish.

I have some questions:
1) What color is the stringy feces?
2) When the feces is not 'stringy' then what does it look like (texture)? What color is it?
3) Does the stringy feces appearance relate to any particular feed you might be using the two or three feedings before?

I would not choose the foods you are using to feed clownfish. Your clowns are omnivores. They depend as much upon meaty foods as they do vegetation. I don't see a high enough vegetable content in the foods you've chosen. Don't feel bad about this, it is a common situation.

Prepackaged foods 'say' they are good for this and that fishes, but you need to read the ingredients closely. Just because it says it contain vegetables (like spirulina) doesn't mean it contains enough for an omnivore (or even a herbivore).

We (you and I) know that: mysis, Cyclop-eze, and brine shrimp are all in the meaty category. Let's take a closer look at that "herbivore frozen food" you're using. If the first ingredient isn't a vegetable matter but is instead a meaty matter, then that 'herbivore food' isn't vegetable-enough.

Formula 2 comes in different forms and some variety of mixtures. The ones I see on the Internet have the first three (or more) ingredients as meaty foods, even though the product is labeled suitable for herbivores. My flake Formula Two lists marine algae as the seventh ingredient followed by one more meat, then kelp. I just don't believe that that is a proper herbivore diet, let along a proper omnivore diet.

I would try the following, so that we can eliminate (no pun intended) the nutrition/food parameter: Chart out 20 feedings.

Two can be the mysis (mixed with bits of seaweed - see below)
Two can be the enriched brine shrimp
Two can be the Cyclop-eze
Four are Hikari Mega-Marine Algae (frozen)
Four are Omnivore frozen food (first or second ingredient is vegetable)
Four are Marine-S
Two are broccoli flowers (the green buds at the top, well washed)

Every day, put in a strip of seaweed. Vary it between the different manufacturers and the different colors of seaweed. They may refuse this (or a particular color). If they do, then break up the strip into little pieces and mix in with the mysis and brine shrimp feedings, but keep a strip in the tank all the time for them to nibble on.

I make my own herbivore and omnivore food. I use spirulina, powdered kelp, and the different available seaweeds (e.g., nori) so I can only come close to that scheme in available products to you, which I've tried to do above.

Recap: Looking more closely at the fecal matter and a shift in diet towards more vegetables are the two things I would do next.

That's all I can think of, right now. Good luck!
  #11  
Old 06/19/2005, 07:39 PM
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Lee,

Thanks for the response. Now that you mention it, they could use a bit more green in their diet. The feces will be anything from brown and clumpy, to a redish brown powder, or stringy and white. Sometimes the feces are yellow and stringy and sometimes brown and stringy... I have seen so many different types from this pair. My girlfriend thinks I'm crazy b/c I stare at them for a half an hour after I feed them to see their feces.
I will go to the store tomorrow and stock up on some supplies. I'll start feeding the foods you suggested and see what happens. Again thanks.
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  #12  
Old 06/20/2005, 11:55 AM
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The texture of the white stringy is usually smooth and thin. Does the diversity of the feces color/texture indicate something?

I generally feed the same stuff everyday. Could it be the food is not defrosted enough (still cold), and that is upsetting their stomachs? I will be administering the last hex-a-mit treatment today orally and in the water.

I am going to the store soon to get some supllies to improve their diet.

Also, what is Marine-S? Thanks for your time!
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  #13  
Old 06/20/2005, 12:17 PM
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The diversity (to me) says that it is not likely a worm. A worm wouldn't 'come and go.' The feces would tend toward a particular color and consistency (IMHO). A variety could be related to diet.

A closer look at the fecal matter would likely determine if there is something still in their intestinal track.

I don't think that cold food would give the results you've reported. (Not to say that it is okay to give them cold food!)

Marine-S was reported to be particularly good for clowns. Variety is still the foundation of a good diet, but a 'variety of the right kinds of foods' is usually left out of this bit of guidance. Don't be too focused on obtaining Marine-S. Read labels for ingredients!

Good luck!
  #14  
Old 06/25/2005, 03:07 PM
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Lee,

I found the Martine-S pellet food.

I have started diversifying their diet and trying to add more greens. The female clownfish will eat anything I put into the tank, while the male doesn't like the food with a lot of greens in it. I purchased some brine shrimp w/ spiralina in hope of getting him used to food w/ algaes in it. I am also soaking food in Zoe (heavy spiralina formula)

I am starting to believe that it is a diet issue, due to the fact that the females feces are almost always clumpy and brown, probably due to the fact she eats more greens than her mate. The male's has improved but still will have a real thin white string feces (almost hairlike) on occasion.

I think I might move them back to the reef and continue offering them varied foods there. What do you think? Or should I try a different treatment? Thanks.
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  #15  
Old 06/25/2005, 03:38 PM
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If they were my fish, I think I'd be convinced that it was a dietary issue and not a biological entity. I'm only going on what you've reported. But, you have a bit of an advantage while they are in quarantine --- you have their closer attention. You might stand to accomplish the male accepting more diversity while it is in quarantine than in the open tank again. But, I can see no other cause for further treatment.

You can take algae and mince it up into tiny pieces and press it into mysis, then freeze them together. You can get Julian Sprung algae bits, too. Keep trying different things -- even the same thing by different suppliers/manufacturers. I find that fish will tend to gravitate towards one food or another (especially the older ones) but the aquarist should work hard to prevent this (and not give in to their desires).

  #16  
Old 06/25/2005, 11:43 PM
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Lee, I appreciate your imput in this thread. I went ahead and moved them back to the display tonight. I will press algae bits into the mysis and give that a try. They remained very active during the whole month in QT, under every treatment. No matter what I treated with (Pipzine, hex-a-mit, garlic) they acted the same as the day I brought them home. Again, thanks for your experience.
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  #17  
Old 07/12/2005, 12:49 AM
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Well I tried to improve their diet for the last two and a half weeks in the display and they still have the thin white stringy feces. It doesn't occur every night...just once and a while. I am totally confused, and can not understand why nothing works for me. I read about all these treatments and try them according to instructions and nothing works. It is real frustrating. Everything I read says that this is a sure sign that they are unhealthy, but if it wasn;t for the feces I would have no complaints about them. It is also not like they are wasting away, because their bellys look healthy, and I have noticed growth over the past several months....especially in the female. I am going to try another cycle of the pepso food.

On a positive note, they are still quite active...and the female has even started host a RBTA. Color is great, eyes are clear. There is nothing physically wrong with them...just occasionmally a few upturned scales, but I would attribute this to their high activity. The scales are replaced within 2 days.

At this point I doubt there could be any suggestions due to the fact I have tried all the treatments. At this point I wish i could just bring the feces to a lab and have them tell me what is wrong, I'd even pay for it!... i'm venting...
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  #18  
Old 07/13/2005, 05:12 AM
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I 'feel' for you. If it were me, there would be a bit of a sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach, like something was wrong and yet powerless to alter it.

Your approach is sound. As for fecal inspection. . .is there any University, or public/private aquarium near you for such an analysis? Some institutions, especially public aquariums, have been known to help in such matters.

  #19  
Old 07/13/2005, 09:24 AM
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Harbor Branch and ORA are about 20 minutes north of my house. There is a Community College 15 minutes away and Florida Tech is about 45 minutes north.

I'll see what I can do.
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  #20  
Old 08/08/2005, 11:13 PM
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None of the institutions seem too keen on my offer. They probably think I'm crazy. The clowns are back in QT, for further observations. Everything is still the same with them. I tried maracyn 2 in the water, which did not do anything. After a 20 % and 50 % water change and running carbon for 36 hours, I put some prazipro (praziquantel), which I have read is pretty potent.

I don't think its diet because I have a maroon clownfish that eats the exact same food and shows normal feces.

We'll see how this week goes. My goal was to get these guys to breed, and now after all this, and the meds they have been through they are probably sterile! I have my doubts about the last thing working, but I do have hope.
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