250 Gallon room-divider project log

[Psyire]

Glad to hear everything is going as good as can be expected. With any luck you'll be Ich free once again and hopefully for good!

[beerguy]

bump

[beerguy]

It should work now.

[jeffbrig]

Thanks beerguy, I guess the thread was stuck!

[jeffbrig]

Well, it's not going as I had hoped. In the past, we've always seen ich for just a few days at the start of hypo, then it disappeared pretty easily. This time, we've had the fish in hypo for a few weeks, and the tangs still haven't been able to shake it. I've recalibrated the salinity meter twice, and even pulled out the old refractometer to verify. We've alway been between 1.009 and 1.010.

I'm beginning to suspect that we're dealing with a strain that resists hyposalinity. If that's the case, we need to pull them out of hypo and switch over to Cupramine for a few weeks. Then, the question becomes the mandarin. Some people say that mandarins can't handle copper treatments, but I seem to recall reading posts from a few people who have used copper with mandarins successfully.

Whatever we end up doing, the fish must be back in the display the first week of June, before we head out on vacation. We can't leave our house/tank/cat sitters a QT that requires frequent attention.

[zemuron114]

between 1.009 and 1.010 wont kill the ich. anything above 1.009 ich will survive either visible or dormant. It must be at 1.009 and always there for the 4 week period.

[jeffbrig]

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php

Treatment Option 4 - Hyposalinity:
Low salinity has been demonstrated to be an effective treatment against Cryptocaryon irritans (Noga, 2000). A salt level of 16 ppt or approximately 1.009-1.010 specific gravity at 78-80*F for 14 days was reported to kill the parasite.

http://www.petsforum.com/personal/tr...osalinity.html

For the treatment to be effective the salinity needs to be lowered to 12-14‰ which is equivalent to a specific gravity of 1.009 (d20/20) at normal tank temperatures (26-28°C - 79-82°F).

While he states 1.009, if you look up the values, 12ppt is 1.0082 and 14ppt would be 1.0098.

Other sources I've read suggest that anything below 1.009 is dangerous because it's too close to the concentration of a fish's internal fluids. I typically target 1.009, and keep an eye that it never rises too far above that. And, as I said before, it's always worked in the past, but doesn't seem to be effective this time.

[bureau13]

You could use Tank Transfer on the Mandarin again couldn't you? Just because hypo isn't working, I can't think of any reason why tank transfer wouldn't, unless the life cycle of whatever you have is completely different, which seems unlikely.

jds

Originally posted by jeffbrig
Well, it's not going as I had hoped. In the past, we've always seen ich for just a few days at the start of hypo, then it disappeared pretty easily. This time, we've had the fish in hypo for a few weeks, and the tangs still haven't been able to shake it. I've recalibrated the salinity meter twice, and even pulled out the old refractometer to verify. We've alway been between 1.009 and 1.010.

I'm beginning to suspect that we're dealing with a strain that resists hyposalinity. If that's the case, we need to pull them out of hypo and switch over to Cupramine for a few weeks. Then, the question becomes the mandarin. Some people say that mandarins can't handle copper treatments, but I seem to recall reading posts from a few people who have used copper with mandarins successfully.

Whatever we end up doing, the fish must be back in the display the first week of June, before we head out on vacation. We can't leave our house/tank/cat sitters a QT that requires frequent attention.

[Ah64av8tor]

Originally posted by jeffbrig
Thanks beerguy, I guess the thread was stuck!

Funny I was going to ask you if something was wrong, because I would get an email saying that someone replied to your thread (actually about 10 of them ) and I would check and there were no new postes.

[ufchristyb]

Originally posted by bureau13
You could use Tank Transfer on the Mandarin again couldn't you? Just because hypo isn't working, I can't think of any reason why tank transfer wouldn't, unless the life cycle of whatever you have is completely different, which seems unlikely.

jds

The problem with tank transfer is that it only eliminates the ich that drops off the fish. The theory being that you transfer enough, all the ich will drop off, the fish is placed in a new location so that there is no chance of anything encysting and reinfecting. However, if there is deeply imbedded ich in a fish's gills, tank transfer wouldn't necessarily address this. You could go through a whole tank transfer cycle with your fish still harboring some parasites. That being said, this scenario is probably unlikely with a mandarin, I just don't know if I am willing to risk it. We are going through all this work to hopefully put clean fish back into a clean tank. I would hate to let something slip through.


--Christy

[bureau13]

I think the parasite HAS to drop off, in order to go on to the next stage of the lifecycle and reproduce. Sort of like how they die in a fishless tank, but in reverse...I don't think they have the option of just hanging out on the fish indefinitely.

That said, it sounds like your strain is not following all the rules. Who's to say its lifecycle is not different, or at least differently paced.

jds

Originally posted by ufchristyb
The problem with tank transfer is that it only eliminates the ich that drops off the fish. The theory being that you transfer enough, all the ich will drop off, the fish is placed in a new location so that there is no chance of anything encysting and reinfecting. However, if there is deeply imbedded ich in a fish's gills, tank transfer wouldn't necessarily address this. You could go through a whole tank transfer cycle with your fish still harboring some parasites. That being said, this scenario is probably unlikely with a mandarin, I just don't know if I am willing to risk it. We are going through all this work to hopefully put clean fish back into a clean tank. I would hate to let something slip through.


--Christy

[ThomasinKind]

This thread(s?) has been very informative. Sorry to hear of your recent trouble(s).

Christy - I LOVE your posts/responses. You always manage to crack me up (especially the "how colorful are you" response).

Good luck with everything. I'll continue to check out your progress.

-Thomas

[ufchristyb]

Thank you, tank you!

[jeffbrig]

Well we spent the day making the rounds of our favorite LFSs, seeking out advice as we embark on first-time-ever use of copper.

We are going to start out with cupramine and hope that does the trick. We have several different types of test kits we will be using to monitor the levels, and we are going to cross our fingers and hope that our target mandarin will make it through. He had some suspicious looking bumps on his skin today, so he will need to be treated.

Regarding the mandarin, we have been hand feeding him live brine shrimp out of a turkey baster since he's been in the hospital tank, and he has been doing ok for the last few weeks, but he has finally started to look a little thinner. Not surprising seeing as how brine has little to no nutritional value. Mark at Reef's Edge recommended PE Mysis, which is really high in protein, so we brought those home and fed a few to the Mandarin via the old turkey baster, and he loved them!! They are almost too big for him, but he was gobbling away, swimming around with half a shrimp hanging out of his mouth. I think he ate 5+ in the first try, so thats definitely a good thing. Hopefully he will be ok in the copper.

Wish us luck. :-)

--Christy

[jeffbrig]

Hey, RBTA #2 finally split today!

[mbunaman]

You can try to enrich the live brine or mysis with come selco before you feed so you will give him the extra nutrients needed.

[jeffbrig]

Looking good in QT - knock on wood. No spots visible on the fish currently, and no apparent issues from the Cupramine treatment. This is the first time the fish have appeared spot-free since we moved them to QT.

[jeffbrig]

Stop reading now if you're squeamish!!




Back in February we pulled a few pieces of Eunicid worm from the tank, but we knew we had more. Since tearing down the tank, we knew there was one on some rock in the sump, and another in the small pile at one end of the tank.

Well, today I saw the one in the sump, and saw which rock he was in. Got him. Then I pulled two rocks from the display, one of which had to be holding the other worm. A little sparkling water and I was able to flush them both. One piece is at least 6", the other was at least 18". I held the rock over a salt bucket as it was coming out, and it stretched far enough to touch the ground and curl up a few inches.

Here's a couple of pics

I saw this one out in plain daylight the other day while I had the camera out. He must be hungry, I haven't been feeding the tank much with the fish out. Right after I took this picture, he turned and took a bite out of the red chili coral.


The big one coming out of the rock


The two worms safely removed



Unfortunately, it looks like both pieces there are not 100% intact. The worm is smart enough to hold itself in place by the head, and breaks itself off whether than come out of the rock. Both worms broke under their own weight, I didn't do any tugging on them.

So, those two rocks will go into QT until we either get the rest of the worms, or make sure they're dead. I may do some fw or hyper-salinity dips to make sure I get rid of them.

[ThomasinKind]

Eeeeeeh *shudders*

I think I read somewhere about ways to get these out of rock without having to dip, I'll see if I can find the article/thread.

-Thomas

[bureau13]

Those things are soo cool. Species tank!

jds

[jeffbrig]

You can have as many as you want! lol...

I got another 6" of worm today, including one of the heads. I left the rocks in a bucket with a powerhead overnight and today I noticed that the powerhead had stopped. I unplugged it and it found a worm half sucked through the intake, blocking the impeller. Cleaned it out, powerhead works good as new - goota love those MJs.

I also saw the other worm's head in the bucket, poking out from the rock. So, I know he's in there, it's just a matter of extracting him. I'm grabbing another bottle of San Pellegrino today, and if that doesn't work, I'm nuking the whole rock, and I'll just re-cure it on the patio.

[jeffbrig]

Okay, got the other worm's head yesterday, so those rocks are clean and ready to go back in later today. However, last night I was poking around the tank with a flashlight, and I think I saw another in a different rock. I'll take that one out today and give it a flush, see what happens.

Unfortunately, that M. confusa we bought a couple of months ago was carrying monti-eating nudibranch eggs. I've posted all about it in the SPS forum, with lots of pics:
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...readid=1123467

[ThomasinKind]

Thanks for all the documentation, I know that's of little consolation. I'm sure with your quarantine practice(s) and husbandry skills you'll eventually get past all of this.

Good luck.

I did find that article on the worms. The suggestion was to place the rocks in a rubbermaid container on an eggcrate platform (approx. 6 inches from the bottom) and place some food on the bottom in a meshbag/pantyhose/something similar. Apparently they will become ensnared and you can remove them. It seems like your current method works, so this is just a suggestion if you get stuck.

[zemuron114]

Cupramine is my favorite copper choice. I run it in my system 24/7. (holding system - no inverts)

If you follow the instructions on the back it will definitely rid any parasites you have, and it doesn't destroy tangs internally (like most coppers can at high dosages).

Good luck with the copper!

[Rokdog]

Just spent the day re-reading your entire thread..awesome. Good luck with everything