Good Lordhowensis!!

[Vili_Shark]

Mothra, I didnt save the threads, but if you just do Acan search here, and look at the threads from Jan till May (I was following these threads) you can see for yourself.(a lot of reading though)

I was looking here, and then looking at Indonesian suppliers and friends, e-mails and price lists and ....

Nobody would listen back then.

[Jus Reefin]

Villi, my statement was directed at anyone who thinks there is some sort of "Acan Price fixing Mafia" My feeling is why should we talk trash to some one who paid $1k for a coral? Why is that any of our business? The only ones fixing the prices are the Wholesalers with there behind the scene auctions for a coral they paid $20 for. I also find it extremly funny that some VENDORS can call a coral "LE" or "RARE" when there are 500 of them already in other tanks. But I guess that's OK as long as you pay your dues. At least when Acans were considered "Rare" in the hobby you could only find a hand full of people that had them. Unlike a PM that still sells for $300 a frag but yet there are at least 5000 of these pieces in captivity!

[Jus Reefin]

Originally posted by Vili_Shark
Mothra, I didnt save the threads, but if you just do Acan search here, and look at the threads from Jan till May (I was following these threads) you can see for yourself.(a lot of reading though)

I was looking here, and then looking at Indonesian suppliers and friends, e-mails and price lists and ....

Nobody would listen back then.

No one would listen to Hobbiest when the Wholesalers and retailers were telling us something different. If anyone is to blame it is them not the hobbiest

[Vili_Shark]

Reefing,
About your last sentence, I dont think you're right....it's the hobbiest that pays the big bucks....I know personally one very large wholseller in 104th st, and I know for a fact he DID NOT charge those crazy prices on Acans, I also know that he didnt get many.....if you remember my posts here earlier this year, there was a dude here, I forgot what his name ,who insisted NOBODY on 104 received Acans at that time,he claims he sees all the shipments at that street and nobody had the so called rare coral.....JOKE...or maybe it was something more?
Put this together with what I said in my last few posts, all this was said here in LPS forum, dont you think there's something wrong?

The PM is another Joke....somebdoy is a genious and made a lot of money out of it.

[Anthony Calfo]

Jus Reefin... you are mistaken (in many ways) and have misquoted me.

I personally have yet to see any of the big LA wholesalers offer any Acan for more than $69. And that was for an XXL with easily $30 or more in actual freight (water/weight) charge built into it.

What the third, fourth or fifth reseller does to prices is beside this point.

As for the price-fixing... again (as per article and other posts), I have personally seen shared IMs, PMs and e-mails detailing clear price fixing and collusion between some very notable RC traders. I'm surprised this surprises you of all people in particular.

A number of industry consultants and advisers have also been contacted in the last year by Federal authorities re: poached scleractinia.

I for one have seen photographs of corals in shipments secured by current and former (banned) RC Acan collectors/sellers, among other people.

The issue is real, if you can take my word for it.

And as I reckon, my word is as good as yours on this thread.

The issue can/should be dead at that.

You can continue to disbelieve it.

I know what I've seen and trust the word of other industry people that, like myself, do not sell or trade Acans... and have no vested interest in the drama/misrepresentation.

And I'll put the decades of experience from these industry players and Customs/Feds folks up against your apparent knowledge of our hobby/industry (3 years reefing, you sig currently says?)... anyday.

Can't we all find something better to do now?

Anthony

[Jus Reefin]

Villi, I for a fact know of many Wholesalers who have paid $10-20 for an Acan only to charge $300 once they know what it is so how are they not to blame. Anthony Calfo stated he seen them come into the wholeslaers for these prices as well, yet most vendors ( at least the ones I patronize) are still charging $10-20 per head. If it's not the wholesaler it must be the retailer then. I can click on 3 different vendors right now with Acans and there prices are still through the roof. I have made several trip to LA wholesalers with a friend who is in the business and everytime he ask about Acans there were always in the back room or they were charging $200-500 for a colony that broken up into 3 pieces at $200 each piece. People are no longer paying $100 per polyp yet retaliers are still charging this much why is that?

[mothra]

Vili

It's too much reading, and I have nothing to gain from it. It's convenient to say that there is a price fixing conspiracy, but not backing it up with anything what so ever is where your credibility goes down the drain (not directing that at you or anyone specifically). It's laughable really - the only people in their right mind that would pay $$$$ for some corals to put in a box of water are the people who had that kind of cash to begin with, who cares what they do with it. Owning acans isn't a necessity of life, it's a luxury that many people can now afford and the price is steadily falling.

Just ask JusReefin, I have been ribbing him for awhile about his need to own acan lords, I even pulled my brown Hummer H2 up to his place and stole all his over priced reddish brown acans when he wasn't around and sold them on ebay for millions (inside joke). The point is some people wanted them really bad and paid more than others, my wife helped remind me that I didn't want them that bad Now that they're cheaper I own a few small pieces too.

[Jus Reefin]

Anthony, If I misquoted you it was not my intention and I am sorry for that ( honeslty I don't know wher I did) . My intention and belief is that Hobbiest ( there not really hobbiest if they are buying it just to sell it) are not the only ones inflating the market. You said it yourself that you have never seen any Acan sell for more then $69 at many large LA wholesalers. Well I have seen first hand them charging $200 ( as recent as 1 month ago) for a Lord colony and in no way do I believe they are paying close to this much money. How would one explain that? From what you say I would have to believe it is the retailers inflating the prices or the wholesalers just flat out lying and providing you with incorrect list.

As a hobbiest what are we to believe when we have witnessed first hand Wholesalers charging out the wazoo for these corals but we have a very well respected figure ( you of course) in the hobby who states wholesalers are not doing this? Are they lying to you? Do they see "sucker" when some retailers come in too buy so they increase there prices? Also I have seen several wholesaler list over the past 6 months and NONE of them had Acans on the list we rec'd. As for reading PM's and IM that is another issue ( invasion of privacy) that I do not doubt, but like I said it's those bad apples making it bad for everyone else. But then I am accused of something cause of that comment. To be honest my beef is with all of the accusations and Sterotyping that is associated with this, not that I don't belive there are a few bad apples out there. In my opinion for some type of price fixing ring to be in place that would require all parties to be involved wholesalers,retailers,hobiest, etc. but I could be wrong and it would not be the first time or the last

By the way thanks for validating my theroy on PM's not being personal at all J/K

BTW, it's been well over 5 years now Reefing

[Vili_Shark]

Mothra
As I said, I'm not going to look it up,only cause it'll make me look good.
I'm not American, I'm not in America,but I just dont like to see fellow reefers getting their , you know what, @#$%....it's shouldnt happen.

All what I said it the last posts, I remembered from the threads here earlier this year, I remember jusreefin was active here as he is now, I remember a dude name bugsy something and others, I cant say who said what and not going to look it up now, but again some of what said was:
*Acan lords are not coming from Indo.
*Acan lords are coming from Lord Howe islands and some remote pacific islands +japan.
*Acan lords are rare
*104th street suppliers at that given time are not getting ANY lords at all that from somebody who meant to be a hot shot and knew the wholsellers one by one.

All the above is BS, call it conspiracy , call it price fixing, call it whatever you like.
Cause of posts like what I mentioned above plus ALOT MORE, people have payed thousands of dollars for frags/colonies.
I think jus reefin can recall all this, as he was active on the threads and saw it himself.

For now, it really doesnt matter, it's dead, it's history, right now as we talk there are thousands of Acans, some legal some not making their way to the US, or getting ready to go....the price will continue falling till it'll settle at something that'll make sense or even less cause obviously it's over harvested spcies right now.

[mothra]

Anthony,

I must have missed your comments regarding having firsthand knowledge about the price fixing. Obviously you have paid your dues and are as credible a source as any, however I really wonder how many people could be involved in what you're claiming? There have certainly been other 'fads' with similarly ridiculous prices (you mention some specifics in your article) so why hasn't anyone brought attention to this in the past?

Honestly all I can do is shake my head. If you have to have it today you gotta pay the price, if you can wait a while and/or have good relationships w/ other hobbyists a lot of these same corals are easily accessible. In a hobby where everything is a luxury for us to have, and patience usually pays off price fixing seems like a non-issue. Poaching and illeagal collection is another topic all together that should be in the spotlight rather than this. Seems like a lot of fuss for nothing. I'm sure there are many many hobbysits out there who don't even know what an 'acan' is.

[Jus Reefin]

Originally posted by Vili_Shark
Cause of posts like what I mentioned above plus ALOT MORE, people have payed thousands of dollars for frags/colonies.
I think jus reefin can recall all this, as he was active on the threads and saw it himself.

Those are the ones that give the real collectors a BAD name that I mentioned before. If you buy a coral just cause someone said it was Rare or you would never find it again then that is there own stupidity. I buy corals cause I like them. My wife reminds me of the prices but I tend to look at the coral not the price tag. I could care less if there is 1 of them or it's the most common thing out there If i like it I buy it. Hell I paid $30 a stalk for Xiena a year ago being stupid. Had I researched it I could have goten it for free, but that's my stupidity and I'm not afraid to admitt it

[Jus Reefin]

Originally posted by mothra

Poaching and illeagal collection is another topic all together that should be in the spotlight rather than this. Seems like a lot of fuss for nothing. I'm sure there are many many hobbysits out there who don't even know what an 'acan' is.

I agree!

[Anthony Calfo]

Jus Reefin... you are still missing it. The difference is the original importer/broker versus the second, third hand folks you are shopping.

Very few of the dozens of LA wholesalers actually have their own collecting stations. Many of the exporting counties simply won't issue additional export permits. So you literally have situations where an island nation may only have 3, 5 or 7 permitted exporters to serve the whole country.

And so... when they do enter the US, the wholesalers in LA work co-operatively and swap animals/livestock.

Very rarely does a specimen go from collector, to one LA wholesaler, to the retailer, to the consumer. There are usually more hands in the mix.

You may just need to shop bigger suppliers.

As for "invasion of privacy"... you are wrong... again. The original recipients of the messages contacted law enforcement with various information which included permission to share it (the IMs,PMs, em's, etc.)

And for someone that is "not one of the bad apples"... you sure are acting paranoid to me.

You don't need to bark so loud to convince us that you do not own illegal corals. Quite the contrary.

[Jus Reefin]

HAHAHA LOL Come on over anytime and look at my tank if you like. I am surprised/shocked that you would stoop so low as to make accusation as well. One should never judge another person if they have never known/met them.

Thanks for validating my point by the way with your last post. While educating and ridiculing me at the same time. Consider this my last word on the subject

PEACE
Jus Reefin

And so... when they do enter the US, the wholesalers in LA work co-operatively and swap animals/livestock.

Very rarely does a specimen go from collector, to one LA wholesaler, to the retailer, to the consumer. There are usually more hands in the mix.

[Anthony Calfo]

ahhh...

Jus Reefin - I'm not accusing you. Quite the contrary. As in...

"You don't need to bark so loud to convince us that you do not own illegal corals. Quite the contrary."

Sorry you don't like my style of educating you. I'm not sure how it is that I can reply to your posts, quotes/misquotes and please you and educate you at the same time? I thought I was just being blunt, frank and not wasting time. Seriously... do tell me how to make it sweeter?

Perhaps I should change my signature to read:
"If you throw a stone into a crowd of dogs, the one that yelps is the one that got hit."

I have never heard the Montipora collectors, Acro enthusiasts, etc., get so radical or defensive over their favorite corals.

This is just bizarre to me

[RandyO]

Originally posted by Anthony Calfo


A number of industry consultants and advisers have also been contacted in the last year by Federal authorities re: poached scleractinia.

I for one have seen photographs of corals in shipments secured by current and former (banned) RC Acan collectors/sellers, among other people.

The issue is real, if you can take my word for it.

Anthony

This is very believable, and your word on this matter is all that I would need.

Coral poaching is a serious matter.

It would be great if someone could elaborate on these matters to keep this community better informed, but I can understand if they couldn't because of ongoing investigations.

[RandyO]

Originally posted by Anthony Calfo


As for the price-fixing... again (as per article and other posts), I have personally seen shared IMs, PMs and e-mails detailing clear price fixing and collusion between some very notable RC traders. I'm surprised this surprises you of all people in particular.

Anthony

This is another statement that interests me. Again, your word is all I would need, but more information would be helpful. Again, I could understand if this can't be done since implementing people was not your intentions.

It interests me since I've been one of the people that has been involved with these corals since the epidemic started and this is the first I've heard of it.

And I do like that quote about throwing the stone into a pack of dogs. I think you should change your sig.
(That's not directed at you Rob) I just like the quote.

[Anthony Calfo]

We have seen these (Fed) issues come and go through the years with various imports... live rock (Hawaii and poached wild FL) off and on, various corals as with Japanese... or last year it was Mexican fishes (that one got ugly with cases still pending and huge 5-figure fines being levied. They traced those sales all the way from the LA wholesalers to the shops that bought them and even (when they could) the aquarists that bought them. The poached fish were confiscated of course), etc.

But in most cases through the years, the folks getting illegal fishes, corals, rock, etc usually quit before they get caught and/or before the Feds can build a strong enough case to fine or jail them.

This is the best for everybody: the poachers stop or move on quickly, and taxpayers are spared wasting any more money on investigations or prosecutions.

I hate to see it happen at all, but then again... these folks usually are a tiny part of the industry. Rarely ever worth mentioning (as with the few dozen Clarion angels that came through last year... most hobbyists never even heard of it).

The difference here though with the bad apples poaching Acans is that they are persistent (with a market that still supports them) and they are using the same routes to shift with trends and now get so-called Micromussa, new Dendrophyllid cup corals, etc.

It really did escalate badly, and went from one knucklehead in NY/NJ pulling in Japanese corals... to West Coast aquarists/merchants and even Mid-West merchants getting into the game.

In response (on the good side of things) we have seen threads that raise awareness, and a couple of articles too with hope of putting the trend into check a little bit and (hopefully) keeping the few bad apples from turning into dozens and dozens of bad apples

My (great) hope in the discussions that we all have engaged in (il buono, il bruto e il cativo!) is that the increased awareness will help us all to adequately police ourselves in use of these living resources.

If we don't, the alternative is that someone else (government)polices us.

I for one don't want to see my privileges to keep marine livestock legislated away from us.

And so... we have communities like RC to help us educate ourselves and increase awareness.

I think that's what we are all doing here, right?

[RandyO]

Well put Anthony.

[beerguy]

Originally posted by Jus Reefin
You prove my point with every statement you type! I was not labeling anyone in fact my point is yourself, and many other RC folks ( mods included) like to do all the labeling of people here and this thread is another example! My point all along as been the fact that you along with many others here have some sort of "Conspiracy Theroy" of some sort of Acan price gouging Mafia ring when in all actuality it is the Wholesalers and retailers ( many of them RC sponsors) that are doing all the price fixing and gouging not us few Reefers who want them cause we LIKE them. Read Anthony's post he even stated they are coming into the Wholesalers for $25-40 each then they charge the Retailer $300 and the retailer charges us $500, how is that us hobbiest are doing this, is it because we are willing to pay any amount? If so then i find that EXTREMLEY AMUZING!

BEERGUY, your "too close to home" accusations have gone on long enough. Until you actually take the time to meet me
(considering we live in the same area) or come up with some facts, I would appreciate you keep your accusations to yourself. I love to hear other opinions but making false accusations is a whole different ball game.

Two points.


1. You're the one who's jumping to conclusions. I didn't make any of the statements that you seem to be attributing to me.

2. Your life might be happier if you learn to take a joke. No one accused you of anything; please stop grinding the "I'm a victim" axe.

Cheers

[Jus Reefin]

Your life may be happier if you didn't have to be Right all the time and make comments like this. If any of your post were Jokes that is the Darkest Humor I have ever seen and quite frankly I don't get it! My point was made and I am done with this topic. I will save Anthon'ys post for future reference.

[beerguy]

I don't have to be right all the time, it just works out that way.

[GreshamH]

Originally posted by Jus Reefin
Villi, I for a fact know of many Wholesalers who have paid $10-20 for an Acan only to charge $300 once they know what it is so how are they not to blame. Anthony Calfo stated he seen them come into the wholeslaers for these prices as well, yet most vendors ( at least the ones I patronize) are still charging $10-20 per head. If it's not the wholesaler it must be the retailer then. I can click on 3 different vendors right now with Acans and there prices are still through the roof. I have made several trip to LA wholesalers with a friend who is in the business and everytime he ask about Acans there were always in the back room or they were charging $200-500 for a colony that broken up into 3 pieces at $200 each piece. People are no longer paying $100 per polyp yet retaliers are still charging this much why is that?

Before I begin, I have no axe to grind with you, I hope you know this

I've been down to 104th a few times this summer and saw a few non triple figure acans, they're there. On the other hand, up this way, I will say a certain one is doing exactly what you've said

The vendors/LFS are still asking the $$ cuz they're still getting ot Many of us won't pay it, but we're still dwarfed by those who will.

[Badmort]

Its the Acan Police!!!!!



Run for your lives!!!!

[GreshamH]

http://www.killercorals.com/LPS.html

Busted, I'm gonna have to break down your door for your illegal lords