Try again: Is anybody running an algae scrubber as primary filter.

[jglackin]

Originally posted by Mark
Whoa, back from the dead!

I was an ATS user. I had both berlin and ATS systems at one point. It worked well for the type of system I was working towards. I think, though, the direction this hobby has gone, the berlin method is better suited. We've worked ourselves away from high diversity and Au Naturale, to more sterile tanks for better sps coloration. Both are good in my book. Skimmers and bacterial methods like vodka/zeo/probidio have come such a long way, that people are experimenting with nitrogen supplementation!

I run my current tank without a DSB, and just use a heavy skimmer. It works. Back to basics. I keep some delicate animals this way. However, next year, I hope to move into a house with a basement, and still hope to grab an old 75g and create an ATS system. Probably something like a lagoon setup. For Now, my inland ATS sits in the garage for now. It worked though, and quite well. But the final product in the display would be something much different than the tanks you see on RC today.

All of the above. I have a DSB, a plenum, a refugium with a big wad of algae growing in it, a 400 gallon rated skimmer, and a turf scrubber. I may even add a denitrator, some mangroves to my fuge, and maybe even some reef mud.

[Flatlander]

Hi Mark. Seems to be the only thread we meet in anymore.

If anyone wishes, put ATS in the search and it will bring up lots of different ATS threads, including everyones do it your self scrubbers.

The units that Inland once sold, such as the ones Mark & I own, were very nice looking and designed to sit on the top of ones aquarium, with a light hood in front of it and no sump. Of course it could be used in a sump or anywhere else one desired.

As all my posts on the topic say, it worked well for me but not to the point that I thought it could be the sole source of filtration. Perhaps I was striving for the wrong type of tank or did something wrong, I dont know. The turf scrubber was a great addition to the overall filtration though.

Never had to worry about nitrates or phosphates for sure. For myself, it worked better than any of the sump/calerpa type filters I ever tried. I often wondered if most running those, dont have intense enough lighting over their algae. The scrubber screen has a pair of 55w power compacts, only a couple inches over the turf screen.

A friend once lit the algae in his 100g rubbermaid sump with a 400w Iwasaki. That seemed to work well on his 180g tank but shows how the light intensity on the filter has to out compete the intense lights on the tanks. Of at least in my thoughts.

Anyways, as I said previous, I cant use my scrubber in my current set up. When we put it on a friends tank, it will be interesting to watch for changes or improvments and I will post them here.

[dendro982]

Any photos or links to a photos for ATS - small (for 20g tank), inexpensive DIY (do not require work with acrylic), and quiet (no surge)? Or no luck?
Thanks.

Other thing: will hair algae infect the main tank, or there must be UV before entering main tank, as for aiptasia scrubber?

[Flatlander]

I never had any turf algae moving to the display tank. What pics are you looking for. There are some in the thread link I posted and an ATS search will bring up dozens of threads.

My gallery has a pic of my scrubber when it was new but thats to large for a 20g. Mark had a smaller version but would still be to large for the 20.

For a 20g, I would think an Aqua-Clear 500, power filter, converted into a mini refugium would be the best and quietest idea. I have seen many on here, some lit with their own little lights or just from the tanks main lights.

[rbc1225]

Flatlander, do you know of anyone willing to sell their Inland ATS?

[WarrenAmy&Maddy]

Originally posted by bergzy
i found their webiste:

http://www.algalturfscrubber.com/


but correct me if i am seeing things...

here is a picture from their website:


..

correct me if i am wrong

but i thought an algal turf scrubber
was simply any lited refugium w/ macro as nutrient exporter... 'terms' simply meaning using macro to remove nutrients...

but following the above link provided this description



Algal Turf Scrubbing is a solar/algal technology
that utilizes attached, primarily filamentous algae of many genera and species to capture the energy of sunlight and build algal biomass from CO2. A highly efficient capturer of nutrients from fresh, brackish, and sea water, and a wide variety of waste and industrially-polluted waters, ATS performs point and non-point water cleaning services from aquarium to landscape scales. By combining algal-produced oxygen, at super-saturated levels, with solar or artificial UV, many toxic, organic compounds can be degraded by ATS systems.


ATS produces a low cost harvestable algal biomass
at an order of magnitude greater rate than agricultural and forestry products at the same latitude. Currently used commercially to sequester nutrients while producing cattle fodder and soil amendments, the ATS algal product can also be converted to paper and construction materials and can be used to sequester carbon and heavy metals as well as break-down toxic hydrocarbons. ATS-produced algae can be converted to energy products such as biodiesel, gasohol and methane.

[WarrenAmy&Maddy]

Originally posted by WarrenAmy&Maddy


Algal Turf Scrubbing is a solar/algal technology
that utilizes attached, primarily filamentous algae of many genera and species to capture the energy of sunlight and build algal biomass from CO2. A highly efficient capturer of nutrients from fresh, brackish, and sea water, and a wide variety of waste and industrially-polluted waters, ATS performs point and non-point water cleaning services from aquarium to landscape scales. By combining algal-produced oxygen, at super-saturated levels, with solar or artificial UV, many toxic, organic compounds can be degraded by ATS systems.


ATS produces a low cost harvestable algal biomass
at an order of magnitude greater rate than agricultural and forestry products at the same latitude. Currently used commercially to sequester nutrients while producing cattle fodder and soil amendments, the ATS algal product can also be converted to paper and construction materials and can be used to sequester carbon and heavy metals as well as break-down toxic hydrocarbons. ATS-produced algae can be converted to energy products such as biodiesel, gasohol and methane.

iow all this 'verbage' is simply saying

lited fuge w/ macro added to export nutrients

i first heard this term reading one of calfos books - but took it simply to mean (previous description)


regards

[matt & pam]

The difference (theoretically) between a refugium vs. a turf scrubber is the type of algae grown. According to Adey, turf algae is the more effective at removing nutrients than other algae types.

[WarrenAmy&Maddy]

Originally posted by matt & pam
The difference (theoretically) between a refugium vs. a turf scrubber is the type of algae grown. According to Adey, turf algae is the more effective at removing nutrients than other algae types.

thanks for the clarification

but what is turf algae ? (calerpa?)

regards

[matt & pam]

No, turf algae are types that grow at a air/water interface, kind of like what you see on piers on the ocean. The stuff I have growing in red turf, I had green when I started but now it's almost completely red. It almost looks like hair algae in some ways.

Unlike others, I have had some of the turf algae get on my liverock in the tank. I've finally found sea hare (3rd one) that is really taken a liking to it and I hope to have it cleared off the rock. I've been happy with the ATS in it's ability to maintain very low nitrates and phosphates, but with the growth of turf in my display I've come to realize that the ATS is a part of filtration but not a whole. In fact, I just purchased a Octopus skimmer to add onto my system.

HTH

matt

[bergzy]

matt and pam,

can you post a pic of your eco-wheel in action? i like the look of it and think it is a great design...

did you have to seed the eco-wheel? or do you just let whatever algae take hold and grow?

thanks!

[WarrenAmy&Maddy]

Originally posted by matt & pam
No, turf algae are types that grow at a air/water interface, kind of like what you see on piers on the ocean. The stuff I have growing in red turf, I had green when I started but now it's almost completely red. It almost looks like hair algae in some ways.

Unlike others, I have had some of the turf algae get on my liverock in the tank. I've finally found sea hare (3rd one) that is really taken a liking to it and I hope to have it cleared off the rock. I've been happy with the ATS in it's ability to maintain very low nitrates and phosphates, but with the growth of turf in my display I've come to realize that the ATS is a part of filtration but not a whole. In fact, I just purchased a Octopus skimmer to add onto my system.

HTH

matt

sounds like perhaps calerpa - becoming a 'pest' in the system - did it migrate into your display or was it added to ?

w/ so many other ways of nutrient export
is this one any better then others and in comparison worth the risk involved (re migration to other parts system)...

use chaeto and xenia
and admittedly the xenia has been reported to take over some people systems - although i have it cut back/groomed in main display to one small area... as grows gets pulled off and thrown in fuge to attach w/ LR rubble then from there ends up at LFS for store credit... i swear by the xenia for exporting nutrients and it grows far faster then chaeto in my system - re chaeto has yet to be groomed vs xenia could be cut back almost weekly- making it appear atleast xenia outcompetes for nutrients... and my tank registers zero nitrates and now zero phospates (finally w/ the addition of phosp reactor)... iow some people say xenia only grows in systems w/ high nutrients (almost as a smirk to those who have it)... it grew the same for mos w/ high phosphates (while still zero nitrates)... and it has CONTINUED to grow as well if not better w/ the phosphates having been removed manually via reactor

xenia scrubber anyone?


best wishes and thanks for the clarification on this.

[Swanwillow]

I'd be willing to try a xenia scrubber, if someone wants to help set it up in June when I do my 75 in-wall tank. I haven't been very successful with xenia, but this will also be my first RR tank, with an RO/DI.

For serious. I'll try it if someone will help me with the schematics. I won't do it without a skimmer until its running well though.

[matt & pam]

Part of the problem in my situation deals with the harvesting from my eco-wheel (the brand of ATS I use). Small pieces of the algae end up flowing into the tank. This is great for my yellow tang and rabbitfish, but they obviously didn't keep up. Over the 2+ years my tank ran I had a run of dinoflagellates and then hair algae (this in addition to the turf that now grows on some rock).

I have some xenia in my display, it grows ok. However I find the turf algae grows faster. I can pull two cups of turf algae from the eco-wheel about every 2 weeks.

[Mark]

Hey Doug! It's been a while. Good to see you are still around.

The thing that made ATS so cool at the time, was how much nitrogenous waste it could remove. Back in the day, our options for keeping nitrates down were skimmers, DSB/Plenums, liverock, and macroalgae. They all worked, but IMO, bioload had to be kept within reason. The ATS units allowed a significant amount of bioload back then. These days, skimmers have really come a long way, and are in some cases almost too efficient at times. Add to that a trend to increase flow(keeping detritus in suspension) paired with a great skimmer, and you are removing nitrogenous waste before it breaks down. That's the trend I've adopted.

I'm actually surprised the freshwater community hasn't jumped on the ATS bandwagon. Most freshwater hobbyists still manage nitrates via water changes. Some planted tank enthusiasts are able to forgo water changes by keeping bioload down. But the ATS units would be great for, say, African cichlid tanks. African cichlid enthusiasts frequently overstock to reduce territoriality.

[bergzy]

Originally posted by Mark
Hey Doug! It's been a while. Good to see you are still around.

The thing that made ATS so cool at the time, was how much nitrogenous waste it could remove. Back in the day, our options for keeping nitrates down were skimmers, DSB/Plenums, liverock, and macroalgae. They all worked, but IMO, bioload had to be kept within reason. The ATS units allowed a significant amount of bioload back then. These days, skimmers have really come a long way, and are in some cases almost too efficient at times. Add to that a trend to increase flow(keeping detritus in suspension) paired with a great skimmer, and you are removing nitrogenous waste before it breaks down. That's the trend I've adopted.

I'm actually surprised the freshwater community hasn't jumped on the ATS bandwagon. Most freshwater hobbyists still manage nitrates via water changes. Some planted tank enthusiasts are able to forgo water changes by keeping bioload down. But the ATS units would be great for, say, African cichlid tanks. African cichlid enthusiasts frequently overstock to reduce territoriality.

THAT is a great observation mark!!!

greatly enhanced skimmer performance and gentle high flow has done wonders in reefing!!!

i remember my first reef had a modified skilter 250. red sea berlin skimmers were the 'it' skimmer to have and albert thiel walked on water! 6500k metal halide was the holy grail of lighting and keeping lps hammers were considered the king of all kings (in my reef club anyway).

i intentionally grew caulerpa racemosa in my main display because at that time, i didnt know any better and the concept of 'fuges' were still years away. what i did know about macro was that i wanted to grow it to 'soak' up whatever nutrients were in the water...only growing racemosa in the display was not the way to do it...well, i know that...now!

i stopped reefing (due to school) just when ats' were making ripples. it was criticized even back then for the yellow tint the water had. this was also the same time that dsb's were the rage as well. lots happening as it is today.

i am surprised the fw community hasnt jumped on plant growth for nutrient control. i remember suggesting it but was commented on being excessive, too much work (much easier to do water changes) and expensive (lighting, another timer etc). i will hand it to the fw guys though, the trend it seems for them is to make things as 'simple' as possible. aquascaping included...didnt say it wasnt nice...it does look natural but, to me, it seems like the trend in fw plants is that 'less is more', which i can appreciate as i have a fw planted tank as well.

[jglackin]

Originally posted by WarrenAmy&Maddy
sounds like perhaps calerpa - becoming a 'pest' in the system - did it migrate into your display or was it added to ?

w/ so many other ways of nutrient export
is this one any better then others and in comparison worth the risk involved (re migration to other parts system)...

There is no similarity between calerpa and turf algae. They could never be confused with each other. What may be happening is that a more aggressive, less desireable form of algae has taken over his TS, possibly from harvesting too much and then the more aggressive species has taken over. In any case, I would order some new screens from Inland Aquatics and replace the turf in my TS.

Risk? I see no risk. I have had no issues with turf algae spreading to my system. As a matter of fact, one way I feed my fish is to shake to my TS to break loose particles of the turf and to dislodge the critters growing in my turf. The fish go crazy. I have had no turf algae make it past 30 seconds with my tangs and blue throat trigger.

My turf is blue, green, and red. Some of it grows like slime and some of it grows more like grass. I like the idea of having the diversity in my system, the natural nutrient exportation, and one more place to allow critters to grow. I still skim, use carbon, and use phosban (although, likely not necessary), but I consider my TS to be an important component of my over all system. I wouldn't want to reef without it.

[Flatlander]

Ben, some of the threads in the ATS search have pics of the eco wheel, that another is using. Just cant remember the exact thread, yet.

RBC, I have yet to see a used one for sale, except the one I purchased and it was not advertised. As a matter of fact, I only know of myself, Mark and one other on RC that owned one, although I
Mark, I have to agree somewhat. Thats how I run my sps tank, just keep it clean. However on a larger system I think the turf scrubber would assist with the fish load and nitrates. Not to mention most of us now use a phosphate remover and with the scrubber it was not needed.

[matt & pam]

Putaway wet had a good thread with an eco-wheel. He has since begun planning another tank without the eco-wheel though.

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...hreadid=257028

I'm not so sure I need another culture from IA. The turf I have now looks pretty similar to what came originally. One issue I haven't mastered is how often do you need to change the 6700K bulbs lighting a ATS? I just changed mine this week for the first time in 27 months. It will be interesting to see if the turf types shift with refreshed lighting.

[rbc1225]

I just ordered the ATS off of Ebay. Anyone here willing to share some Algae once I receive it or do I have to get it from Inland?

[Flatlander]

Originally posted by matt & pam
Putaway wet had a good thread with an eco-wheel. He has since begun planning another tank without the eco-wheel though.

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...hreadid=257028

I'm not so sure I need another culture from IA. The turf I have now looks pretty similar to what came originally. One issue I haven't mastered is how often do you need to change the 6700K bulbs lighting a ATS? I just changed mine this week for the first time in 27 months. It will be interesting to see if the turf types shift with refreshed lighting.

Thats the one I was thinking of. Thanks

[matt & pam]

RBC,

I'd suggest you get a screen sample for IA. I can send you some of my algae, but it won't be attached to screen like IA sends it. You can zip tie the screen down and it will help seed the entire ATS surface. Let me know if you want some sent your way.

Matt

[rbc1225]

Sounds good, if you say I need it. I just didn't want to spend an extra $60.00 on algae if I could start my own. Thanks

[bergzy]

Originally posted by rbc1225
I just ordered the ATS off of Ebay. Anyone here willing to share some Algae once I receive it or do I have to get it from Inland?

do you have the maker of that ats again? can you email it to me?

thanks!

[matt & pam]

I don't think it cost me $60 for a starter. The turf screen should only cost 10 bucks, and you don't need overnight shipping.

http://www.inlandaquatics.com/prod/tr_algae.html

Look towards the bottom of this page and get a single screen.

Matt