Bermuda Rogue skimmer

[Flint&Eric]

ok, i am back

i checked out ot marimar's gallery and am still not 100% confident in those numbers...maybe it's just me but the reaction chamber is still see through? the faom pics do look improved though. besides that imo the biggest thing hurting the skimmer is the owners themselves...

The #'s are in for the rogue and just like i figured it will be one of the best hot skimmers out there.

that's a very bold claim to make, as all i have seen is so far is clear skimmate and marketing. hopefully these things will settle down and start skimming. air #'s arent everything, look at a BM.... i'd also argue the cup design of the deltec is actually better. the slope lets foam rise easily...with that much air that tiny neck on the rogue is really restricting skimmate production. besides not enough air, that's the downfall of many HOB's. the tiny neck does not let thick foam develop as all the air and wet foam is wicked into that tiny neck...probably a large part of why the rogue has only pulled out water in all the pics.

anyone hook a kill-a-watt to the pumps? with so much air air being injected, i'd bet it puts a decent amount of back pressure on the pump. someone needs to through an eheim on one to see what a real pump can do with it.

DarG, i couldnt agree more re:venturi's. for my next skimmer i am considering Schuran and Elos. there simplicity makes them very attractive.


eric

[luke33]

Marketing....what marketing, thats there downfall? lol, i believe it will be the best hot skimmer out there for the price and performance as of now. The deltec's are nice but to expensive and they will overflow which is the reason i wouldn't use one. I would have to agree that i'd love to see one with an eheim.

[Flint&Eric]

they only overflow if you're in idiot like me... the bermuda would have overflowed as well but drained into a bucket...and then that would have overflowed. not much of a difference. i didnt have the collection cup the correct way. i had it so the clear was facing the back so i can better see the foam head build. i also threw in way too much. garlic+aminos+rods food+ fresh clams+ nori+ live brine all in a span of 20mins in a 20g tank is what caused this. this was all imo, user error.

marketing examples...

-claiming its the best out there.
-smallest bubble size out there.
-never clogs?....
-is not a venturi, when DarG told us when taking the injector apart that it is exactly a venturi. -people harping its the bests hob skimmer, who dont even own it and all we've seen is clear bodies and water in the collection cup.


i believe those all fall under the category of marketing it shows the character of the company and the people running it.... some will understand what i mean, others wont....i wont elaborate here.

[DarG]

Hold on ...

Bermuda does call it a Venturi. They call it a Venturi mixing injector which is exactly what it is.

I agree, the non-clogging IME is a stretch. But calling it clog resistant would have been accurate IMO. I have had two venturi skimmers before the Bermuda and both clogged alot quicker than the Bermuda. It wont clog with calcium build up but it can clog with build up from salt spray, again, IME. Mine had a very small amount of salt spray build up after 6 months. It wasnt even enough to hurt performance. However, I do agree that non-clogging is not exactly accurate.

As far as claims of the "best", well, Bermuda isnt the only company that makes those type of claims so they arent any guiltier than alot of other manufacturers if they are indeed NOT the best. I think that anyone with half a brain doesnt even think about buying into those types of claims. Thats a gloss over claim when considering a purchase. So many companies make it for their products that it usually gets ignored.

As far as bubble size, well ... if two skimmers draw the exact same amount of air in the exact size chamber and ones bubbles are half the size of the others bubbles .... the one with the smaller bubbles is going to have the whitest looking chamber. That is why the Bermuda doesnt look as bubble dense as some other skimmers drawing the same amount or less air, again, IMO. The DAS I am trying now looks like it produces a noticeably finer bubble than the Bermuda. If that is the case, then clearly the claim isnt true from what I have seen. It's still a nice, fine bubble, just doesnt appear to be the smallest , IME.

Still ... I dont see how marketing claims will hurt the Bermuda. The larger skimmers are good, effective skimmers. The little 3C does a great job and I know the same is true of the 5C and 8C.
Users posting pictures of water and light skimmate is what will hurt the Bermuda on these boards more than any marketing claims. Atleast in the case of the Rogue.

Marketing claims that are more hype than fact are made by alot of companies, it's not just Bermuda that makes what may be perceived as overzealous claims.. The skimmers are still effective despite whatever claims they make that may or may not be 100%accurate.

[Flint&Eric]

this is post by marimar and where i got that info from.... http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...readid=1205136

A question like that really puts it into perspective for me. The fact that we continue to call it a "venturi" is clearly a problem. Our custom designed air/water mixer was patented under a different name, because it's not a venturi. It's actually very different from a venturi.

I used to consider the similarities and that's why I launched the slogan "anti-cloggin venturi" however, clearly that draws a misconception for some people.

The feedback is unanimous, we've heard time and again, that the needle wheels, and mesh mods are not nearly as effective as our mixer.

I've heard that the same size NW doesn't compare in performance with the skimming potential of a Bermuda Skimmer.

Years ago my partner designed this product to cure the innefective, and inefficiency of other products that he had tried. He's a mechanically savy person, and it turns out that some people like it so much they pushed us to build commercial size skimmers (you can see the pics on our website).

The fact is, that NONE of the skimmers we have built, has ever clogged , and the fact that they draw so much air, and proceed to be chopped so much more than a NW pump could do means that, either we change the name of our mixer to something other than "venturi" or else people who are unfamiliar with our product will have the same misconception as yourself.

Thanks for asking, I hope this clears some confusion about the product.

You've certainly prompted me to re-consider our marketing tactics.

[luke33]

Lots of stuff being thrown out there. lol, Dar, I think you hit it right on the nose with tha air issue, its a fact that bubble size is playing a huge roll here. Venturi skimmer vs NW skimmer...enough said. Flint Eric, you are incorrect about the skimmer overflowing. This is a simple thing that almost all(besides deltec) hot skimmer manufacturers have done. If the level in the collection cup gets to high it will go back into the skimmer body and out the output, so the skimmate will go in your tank after it gets to full. The deltec just overflows...as well as the CSS.....why did they do this, one can only imagine. Thats the big flaw with the deltec. A simple fix would be to add a hose into your deltec and a bucket under it for the skimmate to drain to.

[luke33]

Yea, its called an anticlogging venturi, but then they say its not a venturi, clearly no one knows! lol, imo its a normal venturi.

[DarG]

Venturi is a very general term. Whatever they want to call it, it is a Venturi. And thats how it is marketed on their website ... as a Venturi.

Mine never clogged either. It had a small ball or chunk of accumulated salt build up at the inside opening of the air hole. I cant dispute the claim that they never had a clog because technically, I didnt have a clog either.

I dont know what to think of the air draw claim. Yes, they do draw a good amount of air. I have shown that myself. But, how is it chopped? I guess they are saying it is chopped up by the "crashing" of the air and water down the injection tube and then it is jetted into the internal cylinder at the bottom. I can see that being described as "chopping" as it is a fairly violent mixing if the air and water. "more" chopping than a NW pump can do? That could be true. But is it a more effective "chopping"? They never claimed that.
Again, if you have two exact cylinders with the same amount of air being injected into them and one appears whiter than the other, I would think that the only conclusion is that the injected air is in the form of a smaller bubble size in the whiter, milkier looking cylinder than that of the less white looking chamber.


Reading the fist page of claims on their site, it doesnt say anything about smallest bubble size. They claim it aspirates the greatest amount of air ... I can see this claim possibly holding up. Put an airflow meter on a Bermuda and watch the neddle bounce like crazy. What if the skimmer is hitting very high air flow peaks for fractions of a second. A possibility. They didnt claim it averages more air than any other. They claim it "aspirates" more air. Whatever they intend "aspirate" to mean, maybe it does in those very brief spikes of high air draw?

Seems like a pretty typical advertising statement to me. A little semantic creativity that can be interpreted in many ways and never actually lie at all. They dont even make a "best" claim on that page. They claim that they "set the curve" and comparably sized skimmer "doesnt compare in the ratings" ...

Nothing different than the semantic laden, open to interpretation advertsing claims used by most manufatures of just about any product. Not saying it's right. Just that I dont think you condemn one company for doing something that the majority of others do in their advertising claims.

[Flint&Eric]

i guess you can rationalize anything, but my main issue is with their responses. they're website is ok, i agree nothing more than tunze of KZ claiming plankton friendly, but they contradicting themselves in a public forum.... i also do have an issue with pretending like they re-invented in injector, much like pohl claimed the revolution does not utilize a becket and is their own design.

....i can understand and or rationalize larger bubbles making the chamber more see through, then why the claims about chopping bubbles better and outskimming? trying to compete with NW/ meshwheels on efficiency and bubble size/performance is just dumb. there are benefits to venturi's but they are trying to push pro's that do not exist.

here's another quote...

GSM guy, we were hobbyists before we were manufacturers. The design my partner came up with, put every skimmer he ever bought to shame. Including the needle wheel. There's various reasons posted on our website, but to sum it up, there's tremendous force necessary from the pump to chop the water, in essence you are using the pump to do the twice the work

1 - move the water
2 - chop it with air to create foam

Our pumps just need to move the water, and our uniquely designed venturi-mixer-injector is the non-clogging reason our skimmers are so efficient and can skim twice as much water with an equivalent size pump.

well i'd argue a NW does twice the work with one pump at a lower wattage and less turbulence at that. and skim twice as much watter with an equivalent pump...? how is that being measured, as i highly doubt it. skewed logic imo.

clearly there larger skimmers do work, and many people rave about them. i have not doubt that the do perform well. i still have doubts about the rogue, but am hoping that i'll be proved wrong....the posts i've made have nothing to do with the performance but the tactics...

[DarG]

Just less careful with the wording on the forum than on their website I guess ... They dont make an outright outskimming claim on the website. The just use creative semantics to make it seem that is what they are claiming.

I just dont see the advertising as anything out of the ordinary or any more or less devious than any other company. If they get too specific on a forum and it makes them look "shady" to some people, well then they made a mistake. But the skimmers do skim well regardless (the larger ones anyway), and I'm not so sure why everything else matters so much. If the Rogue doesnt look like a good one to somebody looking for a HOB skimmer, then they should just pass on it.

BTW , I'm not making excuses for the bubbles. I know what I measured. I also know that eventhough the Bermuda drew more air than a Dual recirc octopus that the Octopus had a milkier looking bubble density than the Bermuda. And the Octopus has a much larger cylinder too. I'm just concluding that it must be that the NW's create smaller bubbles for less air to appear more dense. Somebody who knows the science can correct me if I'm wrong. I'm just taking an educated guess.

[Flint&Eric]

i wish hahn or someone with more knowledge would chime in here...but imo it sounds like the bubbles are larger, and based on my experience with venturi's that seems to be true.


....then wouldnt it need more air to perform equivalent to say a NW skimmer with the same air draw but smaller bubble size? larger bubbles means less surface area to attract proteins.... something to think about when comparing any two skimmers.

[luke33]

The bottomline is how they perform as skimmers. 16scfh is only a # and i want to see some skimmate thats dark and smelly.

[DarG]

Originally posted by Flint&Eric
i wish hahn or someone with more knowledge would chime in here...but imo it sounds like the bubbles are larger, and based on my experience with venturi's that seems to be true.


....then wouldnt it need more air to perform equivalent to say a NW skimmer with the same air draw but smaller bubble size? larger bubbles means less surface area to attract proteins.... something to think about when comparing any two skimmers.

You would think but The Bermuda 3C outperformed the DDNW 150 and I sold the Octopus because I did not want to mod the pumps. I bought a DAS EX-2 which I should have bought in the first place (Before the Octo) but I read of the long lead times on the DAS skimmers. Turns out they are readily available now. But there were are comparing a much larger skimmer in both the DAS and the Octopus compared to the 3C. A more fair comparison would be with the 5C or maybe the 8C. But it clearly isnt just about bubble size and bubble size alone other wise the stock Octopus would have outperformed the 3C . Clearly the neck, both diameter and length, must play a large role in the performance equation.

[luke33]

Its very true, more air in your skimmer doesn't neccessarily mean better performance, sometimes quite the opposite.

[GSMguy]

Originally posted by luke33
Its very true, more air in your skimmer doesn't neccessarily mean better performance, sometimes quite the opposite.

exept the performance from this skimmer is not better than the remora nano at this point '

and they absolutely do make ridiculous claims they never back up

i dont know what the deal is but something fishy

[DarG]

PCI ... "High performance venturi skimmers. Best units on the market. GUARANTEED!"

"AquaC introduces the new 2002 EV Series - quite possibly the most powerful in-sump foam fractioners ever."

"Absolutely the best skimmer for the past 18 years and one requiring the least amount of maintenance! We will put the Lifereef skimmers up against ANY other protein skimmer on the market and guarantee equal or better performance and less maintenance."

Cry me a river about the Bermuda Aquatics advertising practices. They are obviously NOT alone.

[kodyboy]

please all companies say their products are the best what do you want them to say "our mediocre skimmers works passably but you can get much better units from Deltec, H&S, ER uh.....well a lot of places"
Seriously, all of the posts that I have read on Bermuda's have been rave reviews by the users. I have high hopes for the rogue, the hobby needs a good, semi-affordable HOB for larger tanks.

[luke33]

Originally posted by GSMguy
exept the performance from this skimmer is not better than the remora nano at this point '

and they absolutely do make ridiculous claims they never back up

i dont know what the deal is but something fishy

At this point there isnt any real evidence of anything! And i'd take this over a remora nano......Or i'd trade you a nano for one, what do you say? Straight up

[VengefulNemesis]

I've been following this thread for a while now, and would really like to see some skimmate pics. So far it's been alot of "bench racing", about air flow, bubble size, bubble capacity, etc. While in theory a skimmer that pulls X, and is designed with a Y should work great, it doesn't always happen. I'm looking for a new HOB and honestly haven't seen anything that my microbubble spewing, Remora isn't doing. If someone had a tank that was similar to mine and said, look at this stuff it pulled out and it works great, I love it, then I would probably buy one. So please someone post some pics, some more actual owner comments, and tank specs. Not trying to offend anyone, just looking for some hard proof.

[luke33]

Well, marimar posted the air numbers on her site. I think the bermuda looks pretty dang good bubble wise. Throw the eheim that produces 350gph and your going to have a super nice hot skimmer. Here's the photos.

http://www.bermudaaquatics.com/images.htm

Any user updates with this guy would be great!

[GSMguy]

dang nice numbers and i see foam in the collection tube on her new pics.

[luke33]

The problem is that all the pics of everyone's skimmer is brand new. And we're all impatient as well, lol. Anyhow i thought the foam looked pretty good as well. And the bubbles were looking pretty good as well. The body is pretty milky looking in most of those pics. It definately depends on what pump you are using.

[kodyboy]

nice air pull with the mag 350 7.6lpm is great I wonder what the eheim would pull?

[luke33]

I'm guessing about 20scfh is all the skimmer can handle and i'm even surprised it can do 16 personally. The neck looks pretty small. 20 for a hot would be exceptionally good. It could handle a 75-100g tank.

[luke33]

So are there any user updates????